Question:
this is a letter that was in The Times today, it frustrated me no end and I am thinking of writing in a reply. does anyone have any comments that you think I should make?
---------------------------------
Sir, Many of the problems facing the Church of England are caused, not by the absence of young worshippers, but by its attempts to appeal to them.
Since the Christian mission is closely connected to marriage, procreation and, above all, death, it is not surprising that the young should find its message remote. That is why all the attempts to entice a youth congregation, including the abandonment of traditional hymns and scripture readings for rock music and audiovisual presentations, have failed. No youngster will go to church to experience some plagiarism of popular culture that he or she can enjoy for real elsewhere.
By jettisoning the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible, there is a danger of alienating elder churchgoers who can no longer recognise the liturgy. It is such people who form the mainstay of congregations, because the message of the Christian faith is most pertinent to their lives.
The Church of England must not be tempted to estrange its existing members in order to attract new ones.
JOHN FINET
Oxford
---------------------------------
any thoughts/discussion welcome
God bless, Rich
Answer:
been there...heard that.
Though, without knowing what the problems of the Church of England are specifically, it's hard to figure out the relationship
Answer:
What always cracks me up his how the the "real" Christian music didn't show up until the 1600's or so. People so often fail to realize that the music and the method of communicating the gospel were just as trendy then as they are now.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Dave H What always cracks me up his how the the "real" Christian music didn't show up until the 1600's or so. People so often fail to realize that the music and the method of communicating the gospel were just as trendy then as they are now. But don't you know that Charles Wesley was much more spiritual and musically in tune with God than David Crowder is.
Answer:
He has a point but he's coming at it the wrong way.
Putting on a show to bring in youth is pretty silly. Unfortunatly, we see this in a lot of non-denominational churches too.
Answer:
Ahh, don't worry. Rowan Williams, or Big R, often writes for broadsheets (and berliners), and he isn't going to change his leadership over the COE's stance on music because of two peoples opinions of worship in church. Big R is down with the kids. He is actually a really nice, genuine and patient man (as one would expect as leader of a denomination tending to a lot of christians) and his worship tastes are exactly that, taste.
He did let us, the worship team at my home church (through the bishop of Lichfield) play at the Lichfield Cathedral. There we go!
Answer:
Originally Posted by Rich* this is a letter that was in The Times today, it frustrated me no end and I am thinking of writing in a reply. does anyone have any comments that you think I should make?
---------------------------------
Sir, Many of the problems facing the Church of England are caused, not by the absence of young worshippers, but by its attempts to appeal to them.
Since the Christian mission is closely connected to marriage, procreation and, above all, death, it is not surprising that the young should find its message remote. That is why all the attempts to entice a youth congregation, including the abandonment of traditional hymns and scripture readings for rock music and audiovisual presentations, have failed. No youngster will go to church to experience some plagiarism of popular culture that he or she can enjoy for real elsewhere.
By jettisoning the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible, there is a danger of alienating elder churchgoers who can no longer recognise the liturgy. It is such people who form the mainstay of congregations, because the message of the Christian faith is most pertinent to their lives.
The Church of England must not be tempted to estrange its existing members in order to attract new ones.
JOHN FINET
Oxford
---------------------------------
any thoughts/discussion welcome
God bless, Rich
My thought is that he's bringing up a common topic that affects churches not only in England but around the world.
If all we're doing is "rock music and audiovisual presentations" without the truth, life and transforming power of the Word of God then we have indeed failed.
Young and old alike don't need "pump up the crowd"-style psychosomatic manipulation though various a/v sources but they do need real Holy Spirit conviction and heart transformation brought about by the undeniable truth of God's Word to man...and that truth can come through various a/v sources that we have at our disposal today.
The delivery of the message has changed, is changing and will continue to change but the truth of the message and the words of the message should never change.
Answer:
I agree with the letter writer's reasoning.
His warnings against rock music and audiovisual presentations and "plagiarisms of popular culture" in general are premised on his understanding of the Christian mission:
Since the Christian mission is closely connected to marriage, procreation and, above all, death, it is not surprising that the young should find its message remote.
In other words, he feels that the church's mission is to provide weddings, christenings and funerals. He also feels that elderly churchgoers are the mainstay of congregations. Such churchgoers value tradition, security and continuity and these can be found through hymn singing, liturgical reading, and the King James Bible.
However, if you feel as I do that the mission of the church is to preach the gospel to all nations, then we must likewise be prepared to minister in all languages in order to reach them. This means ministering in the musical language of baby boomers and below without compromising the gospel message. In other words, let's rock on.
By the way, I like the way the guy writes. I dare say he sounds much more literate than the majority of CGR posters.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Rich* Since the Christian mission is closely connected to marriage, procreation and, above all, death, it is not surprising that the young should find its message remote. That is why all the attempts to entice a youth congregation, including the abandonment of traditional hymns and scripture readings for rock music and audiovisual presentations, have failed. No youngster will go to church to experience some plagiarism of popular culture that he or she can enjoy for real elsewhere.
By jettisoning the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible, there is a danger of alienating elder churchgoers who can no longer recognise the liturgy. It is such people who form the mainstay of congregations, because the message of the Christian faith is most pertinent to their lives.
The Church of England must not be tempted to estrange its existing members in order to attract new ones.
I and my sons have been through this kind of thinking before. I disagree with the author's statement about the Christian mission. The Christian mission is to worship God, not the music, or the church or a certain version of the Bible. God does not give preference to worshippers according to age or how well you stick to traditions. In fact, Jesus did not care if you were a prostitute, tax collector, poor, sick, criminal, crazy or just plain ordinary. He went wherever the sinners were. He also said that the kingdom of Heaven is made up of those whose faith is like that of a child. This kind of commentary sounds almost like what the Pharisees might say.
I have a friend whose parents go to a church that used to be on fire for Jesus and whose legacy is one of supporting many start up churches. But, it's primary struggle today is that they have so many senior members, there is very little to offer the younger generation. So guess what! The families of these older folks are going elsewhere where people can understand them and their needs. Unless they realize that God loves people of all ages, they will only cater to the older folks and that church will eventually run out of members as they die off.
I don't care to listen to rap or hip-hop, punk or metal. But, if my sons were to listen to it, I would rather they listen to songs about God in those formats than to listen to Eminem or Fifty Cent or who have you. My opinion about music in the church is that the differences are mostly generational. I like what the Rev. Butterfield said about time being the test of which modern worship songs will turn out to be gems.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Rich* this is a letter that was in The Times today, it frustrated me no end and I am thinking of writing in a reply. does anyone have any comments that you think I should make?
---------------------------------
Sir, Many of the problems facing the Church of England are caused, not by the absence of young worshippers, but by its attempts to appeal to them.
Since the Christian mission is closely connected to marriage, procreation and, above all, death, it is not surprising that the young should find its message remote. That is why all the attempts to entice a youth congregation, including the abandonment of traditional hymns and scripture readings for rock music and audiovisual presentations, have failed. No youngster will go to church to experience some plagiarism of popular culture that he or she can enjoy for real elsewhere.
By jettisoning the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible, there is a danger of alienating elder churchgoers who can no longer recognise the liturgy. It is such people who form the mainstay of congregations, because the message of the Christian faith is most pertinent to their lives.
The Church of England must not be tempted to estrange its existing members in order to attract new ones.
JOHN FINET
Oxford
---------------------------------
any thoughts/discussion welcome
God bless, Rich
If I am correct in my assumption of the source of your frustration (the bit about "rock music and audiovisual presentations"), then I dare say that I think you missed the real point of the letter, and that any reply that you made would be inadequate and irrelevant. While I think he is a little off in his conclusions (that "jettisoning the BCP and KJV" would alienate the elderly who form the bulk of most congregations), I think his overall points (that churches should serve their current congregations, and that most churches seem to be made up of relatively older folk) are actually dead on. It's something difficult that I myself have had to deal with, as our church [generally] fits the same mold as the churches he's describing in this letter.
While our congregation is not used to the same strictness of tradition as an Anglican congregation would be, there are still elements of worship that appeal more to the older members of our congregation than to the recent influx (albeit relatively small) of younger worshippers. A church exists both to worship God and to serve its congregants, and since the former can be done in any style of music, it makes logical sense to attempt to use those styles of music that appeal to the people of the church.
Therefore, if the "mainstay" of a particular congregation really is primarily elderly people (as this letter alleges about most of the churches in the CoE), it makes little sense to attempt to appeal to an entirely different demographic of worshippers (that is, of course, assuming that there are not significant numbers of those people visiting the church [looking for a place to become a member] on a regular basis). I don't think the author of this letter was concerned so much about "rock music and audiovisual presentations" as he was about the CoE's (according to him) tendency to alienate its elderly members. Obviously, the letter clearly revealed the author's bias toward the BCP and KJV, but you can remove that bias from the actual content and still have a relevant message in the letter, though I do think some of his arguments in support of that message (that the message of Christianity is "most pertinent" to the lives of older people, etc) need some work.
His last sentence needs some rhetorical restructuring. As it stands now, I think it's true, but poorly worded. His choice of syntax makes it seem (from a summary reading) as though the church should not attempt to "attract" new members at all, which is clearly false given the Great Commision and the model of the early church. However, he is correct, I think, in that that attempt should never come at the expense of (as he puts it) "estranging" current congregants. He's got good rhetorical skills, but he's not putting them to good use. Rhetoric should clarify the message, not cloud it in ambiguity.
Answer:
The main source of my frustration was actually his effective assertion that the church shouldn't try to reach young people because the message isn't really relevant to them anyway. I do agree with his final comment about not alienating the existing members to attract new members and Nate your second paragraph is excellently put. However I disagree with his representation of christianity as a mission of "marriage, procreation and, above all, death", that gives an extremely limited picture of Christianity.
Originally Posted by Dave H What always cracks me up his how the the "real" Christian music didn't show up until the 1600's or so. People so often fail to realize that the music and the method of communicating the gospel were just as trendy then as they are now. exactly, they were just as (if not more) controversial then too!
God bless, Rich
Answer:
Originally Posted by Rich* The main source of my frustration was actually his effective assertion that the church shouldn't try to reach young people because the message isn't really relevant to them anyway.
Yes, that is the main failure of the letter as a whole, I would say.
Answer:
Serious letter Rich. Thank you for sharing it. As I read the letter, it occurred to me that the real problem that the writer was pointing out was not the problem he was addressing, but the problem of denominationalism as a whole, and that is that God is not in charge. We trust in our liturgy and our programs, our way of doing things so much, that God's spirit moves on and we find ourselves in a rut leading ourselves, stuck in our traditions not able to draw flies let alone people to a relationship with God through Christ (which is the true mission of the Church). I would encourage the writer (and the body of Christ as a whole) to seek the face of God for his way and plan to reach people for Him knowing that if he be lifted up he will draw all men unto Him.
Answer:
Originally Posted by JACk120 Serious letter Rich. Thank you for sharing it. As I read the letter, it occurred to me that the real problem that the writer was pointing out was not the problem he was addressing, but the problem of denominationalism as a whole, and that is that God is not in charge. We trust in our liturgy and our programs, our way of doing things so much, that God's spirit moves on and we find ourselves in a rut leading ourselves, stuck in our traditions not able to draw flies let alone people to a relationship with God through Christ (which is the true mission of the Church). I would encourage the writer (and the body of Christ as a whole) to seek the face of God for his way and plan to reach people for Him knowing that if he be lifted up he will draw all men unto Him.
Amen.
Answer:
Originally Posted by everyman By the way, I like the way the guy writes. I dare say he sounds much more literate than the majority of CGR posters. That's not an especially hard thing to do, I'm afraid.