Question:
Originally Posted by thesteve This generally results in me spending alot of time figuring out where the song is going...it makes it very hard for me to ever get into a worshipful state, let alone get distracted from one. Oh, I was really hoping I wouldn't have to do this...
What is a worshipful state?
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Originally Posted by bobthecockroach Oh, I was really hoping I wouldn't have to do this...
What is a worshipful state?
In this matter, a worshipful state is focusing on God, not performance.
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Originally Posted by bobthecockroach Oh, I was really hoping I wouldn't have to do this...
What is a worshipful state? to echo what Matt already said, it's being able to focus less on the music and more on the song itself and what it is telling me about God's nature and in turn focus on God Himself.
instead I spend alot of time trying to just figure out what I'm supposed to be playing.
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I consider it slightly irresponsible to focus on anything but the prreformance.
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Originally Posted by Insane Drummer I consider it slightly irresponsible to focus on anything but the preformance. why is that?
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when I'm leading I get 'distracted' by what is going on, making sure I know where we are going and that I make that clear to everyone else, having my mind on any number of things that need my attention such as how we're getting into the next song etc.
When I'm in the congregation I get distracted by;
- people playing songs too fast/slow (this really bugs me)
- band playing badly
- band playing really well (as much a distraction as them playing badly often)
to echo what Matt already said, it's being able to focus less on the music and more on the song itself and what it is telling me about God's nature and in turn focus on God Himself. I think that this is what we need to do in our own practice times and should not necessarily be the 'aim' of the leader during a service. there are a lot of things that need the leaders attention during a song and to ignore these and focus on a deeper understanding of the words instead is (as has been said) irresponsible.
God bless, Rich
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Originally Posted by Rich* I think that this is what we need to do in our own practice times and should not necessarily be the 'aim' of the leader during a service. there are a lot of things that need the leaders attention during a song and to ignore these and focus on a deeper understanding of the words instead is (as has been said) irresponsible. I spend the entirety of both practice and service trying to figure out what's going on.
I honestly feel that if I had a better grip on what I'm supposed to be doing with my playing during the service, I would be more receptive to the Spirit and thus be able to increase my attentiveness to the big picture. As it is, I am only focused on myself. I don't feel like I'm playing at church to worship God, but that I'm playing at church to figure out what the heck is going on.
btw...I'm not a leader...I just play the bass.
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Originally Posted by Rich* I think that this is what we need to do in our own practice times and should not necessarily be the 'aim' of the leader during a service. there are a lot of things that need the leaders attention during a song and to ignore these and focus on a deeper understanding of the words instead is (as has been said) irresponsible.
It's not so much that the leader needs to pay attention to logistical issues so much as it is a Biblical mandate to praise God with our firstfruits, with all of our hearts, souls, minds, and strengths, with the skills that He has given us, and to the best of our abilities. "Whatsoever you do, in word or in deed, to all to the glory of God." That's the be-all-end-all of Christian action, to me, that everything be done "as unto the Lord and not unto men." The old folk always took that to mean working hard at everything you did, and I think that's a sound interpretation. If the manner in which you praise God on Sunday is by playing the guitar, then you had better play that guitar for everything you're worth.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Rich*
I think that this is what we need to do in our own practice times and should not necessarily be the 'aim' of the leader during a service. there are a lot of things that need the leaders attention during a song and to ignore these and focus on a deeper understanding of the words instead is (as has been said) irresponsible.
I would definitely respectfully disagree with that. I firmly believe that the absolute #1 focus of the worship leader is to worship God Himself by example. If he is not worshipping God whole-heartedly, then the congregation will not feel obligated to worship whole-heartedly. And I think that it is right to say that focusing on the deeper meaning of words is a good thing to do in this instance. If you aren't contemplating the lyrics at all, I don't believe you are worshipping through that song. This absolutely does not mean the leader cannot notice things going on around him, or be focused on performance (as long as it's performance for God), or adjust certain things in the service accordingly. Like you are saying, those things are important, but I would say that they are of secondary importance.
I would say that a rehearsal, while we should worship in those times as well, is only that: a rehearsal. In practice, we, as leaders, should be practicing the example we are to exemplify in the service itself: one of absolute worship.
Originally Posted by Insane Drummer I consider it slightly irresponsible to focus on anything but the prreformance.
I hope you're referring to performing for God (see Ps. 33:3), as opposed to the congregation. Because if you aren't, you're dead wrong.
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Originally Posted by Nate It's not so much that the leader needs to pay attention to logistical issues so much as it is a Biblical mandate to praise God with our firstfruits, with all of our hearts, souls, minds, and strengths, with the skills that He has given us, and to the best of our abilities. "Whatsoever you do, in word or in deed, to all to the glory of God." That's the be-all-end-all of Christian action, to me, that everything be done "as unto the Lord and not unto men." The old folk always took that to mean working hard at everything you did, and I think that's a sound interpretation. If the manner in which you praise God on Sunday is by playing the guitar, then you had better play that guitar for everything you're worth.
yeah, this was posted while i was typing the previous post, and i would totally agree.
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Originally Posted by Matt4JC And I think that it is right to say that focusing on the deeper meaning of words is a good thing to do in this instance. If you aren't contemplating the lyrics at all, I don't believe you are worshipping through that song.
I would disagree strongly. Christians throughout history have used music not as a direct method of instruction / edification, but as a method of a more subtle and indirect influence on a person. A song's power, I don't think, lies as much in the fact that it moves you at the moment you hear it as in the fact that you can remember what you felt at a later time. This is why most people can sing songs that they've heard just a few times on the radio, but can probably not remember the content of the last conversation they had. Music has a ridiculously powerful influence on our memory, which is not a spontaneous thing, but one that takes time to have its full effect on us.
In short, I don't think it's necessary at all to focus on contemplating the deepest meanings of the lyrics you are singing at that exact moment that you are singing them. I'm not even so sure that it's necessary to fully comprehend what you are singing. As long as someone has gone to the effort to ensure that the words are Scripturally sound, and written in spirit and in truth, I think that their real power comes long after they have been sung. Like I said earlier, I don't believe the music in a worship service is, especially at that moment, directly for our benefit, but for God's. After the worship service, when we contemplate on the truths that we have sung about God's greatness... that's when the real benefit to us comes.
This absolutely does not mean the leader cannot notice things going on around him, or be focused on performance (as long as it's performance for God), or adjust certain things in the service accordingly. Like you are saying, those things are important, but I would say that they are of secondary importance.
I think we're running into drastically different definitions of what it means to worship God. I believe that worship is an action, not a passion (that is, it is something we do, not something that we experience). Contemplating lyrics is passive, and it benefits us. Performing music or singing lyrics is active, and it "benefits" God. I would strongly hold that performing to the best of your ability is tantamount to "worshipping God whole-heartedly." These acts of worship are what, I think, are most important.
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Originally Posted by Nate I would disagree strongly. Christians throughout history have used music not as a direct method of instruction / edification, but as a method of a more subtle and indirect influence on a person. A song's power, I don't think, lies as much in the fact that it moves you at the moment you hear it as in the fact that you can remember what you felt at a later time. This is why most people can sing songs that they've heard just a few times on the radio, but can probably not remember the content of the last conversation they had. Music has a ridiculously powerful influence on our memory, which is not a spontaneous thing, but one that takes time to have its full effect on us.
In short, I don't think it's necessary at all to focus on contemplating the deepest meanings of the lyrics you are singing at that exact moment that you are singing them.
I would not disagree with this. I think I may have been unclear in what I was saying. Although I think you'd still disagree with me. I think it is crucial for someone to contemplate lyrics, and I still feel that you are not worshipping through that song at that time if you are not. You can very well be in an attitude of worship at the time, or could be praying, or doing something else to worship God, but specifically using that song I don't believe you are worshipping.
I agree completely that playing an instrument can be whole-hearted worship as well. I was wrong in saying what I said as a blanket statement. Now that I think about it, I am more specifically thinking of those people who are supposed to be singing lyrics (i.e. the leader, the singers, and the congregation, not necessarily the musicians).
I'm not even so sure that it's necessary to fully comprehend what you are singing.
wow. I totally disagree.
As long as someone has gone to the effort to ensure that the words are Scripturally sound, and written in spirit and in truth,
This is of course very important for the worship leader to do, but it does not give the congregation freedom to not evaluate what they are singing. I have been in many circumstances where well-meaning worship leaders may have picked a song that they believe is Scripturally sound or written in spirit and truth, and I completely disagree with what is being sung. It would be wrong for me to sing those lyrics in that instance, because then I would personally not be worshipping in spirit and truth.
I think that their real power comes long after they have been sung. Like I said earlier, I don't believe the music in a worship service is, especially at that moment, directly for our benefit, but for God's. After the worship service, when we contemplate on the truths that we have sung about God's greatness... that's when the real benefit to us comes.
I believe the benefit comes both times, during and after. We give to God and He gives back to us. Worship is a two-way action.
I think we're running into drastically different definitions of what it means to worship God. I believe that worship is an action, not a passion (that is, it is something we do, not something that we experience). Contemplating lyrics is passive, and it benefits us. Performing music or singing lyrics is active, and it "benefits" God.
If you don't believe that worship is passive, then, yes we don't agree on the same definition. But I firmly believe that worship is both passive and active. We do worship, and we experience worship. I would argue that contemplating lyrics benefits God as well. I would also argue that performing music and singing lyrics is also passive, as well as active.
I would strongly hold that performing to the best of your ability is tantamount to "worshipping God whole-heartedly." These acts of worship are what, I think, are most important.
I agree. But performing music to the best of your ability is the musicians' job primarily. Yes, if the leader plays an instrument, it is his responsibility as well. But I would hold that the leader's first responsibility is to set an example that the congregation can follow. They cannot follow the example of playing an instrument. They can follow the example of worshipping through singing the lyrics.
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One eye on Christ and one eye on earth.
That is what the worship leader is usually doing on Sunday morning (and Sat. night in my and I'm sure other's case).
If all your attention is on worshiping ONLY then you risk your team members going adrift from a lack of direction...I've seen it happen to some of the better worship leaders and the well-rehearsed teams...yet if you are only performing on-stage micro-management during the service then you've lost the meaning of the service.
You can't do ALL one or ALL the other, so to speak...or can you? By serving your team members by guiding and leading them, you ARE serving God so you ARE worshiping.
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Originally Posted by Matt4JC wow. I totally disagree.
I said I wasn't sure.
I do think comprehension is important.
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Ok, I guess this really comes down to a definition of worship. I believe playing an instrument to the best of your ability is as worshipful as singing a song or focusing on the lyrics of one. Thus, I think I AM focusing on worship when I am thinking about nothing but my guitar playing.