Question:
This might be asking for trouble, but here goes...
First of all, you should know that I lead worship for a youth group. But this youth group is relatively mature spiritually, are often lively, and many of them are planning on or looking into going into full-time ministry.
My question is about something my youth pastor said a few nights ago in a bible study we had. Actually, it wasn't really a bible study, there were 4 of us and we just started talking about everything you can possibly think of. Anyway, we were talking about the difference between services with an "outreach" purpose, and services with a "discipleship" purpose. Outreach services being ones that are geared towards the non-christians that come out; trying to get them interested, teaching them the gospel, exposing them to God, all that great stuff (outreach, obviously). Discipleship services being the ones that are geared towards the christians; drawing closer to God, getting to know him more, worshipping him in reverence and intimacy, learning more about him, and fellowshipping with other christians. You get the idea...it's not a hard concept.
Lately i've been thinking about that concept quite a bit. First of all, I'd like to know if any of you worship leaders hold this concept to be of any importance or significance. Do any of you distinguish between services for outreach and services for discipleship? Or do you, like I've been doing all along, just assume that the two are always mixed, that one can't go without the other, or that you can or should have both?
I've been asking myself how seriously I should take this concept. Should I, every week, decide whether or not the service will be an outreach service or a discipleship service, and then gear it towards that? Or should I try and mix the two as much as I can.
Any comments whatsoever on this subject would be great. I'm just starting to consider it recently, so I haven't thought it over a real big lot. Just something I'd like to get some feedback on.
IMO, if the service types were separate, we could focus our efforts much more. I imagine our services being more effective in both areas, if we focus them separately. But I'm talking too much....like I said, I haven't given it enough thought to be any sort of authority in the matter.
Answer:
In my mind, every "worship service" that I lead is for what you've termed "discipleship". This means every Sunday morning service, every Wednesday night prayer meeting, etc.
I do, however, view special events (such as block parties, drama productions, etc) as what you've termed "outreach".
So, there's my distinction.
In His love,
Nate
Answer:
Yeah, I see a major difference between services meant for "inreach" or discipleship, and services meant for outreach. To me, Sunday morning/evening, and midweek services all are meant to equip and edify local believers to go out and do the work of the ministry. I pretty much agree with Nate on this one. I would also agree with him that special meetings can be "outreach" services. But, I want to emphasize one major point, and that is I do not think it comports with Scripture to have a "seeker-sensitive" Sunday morning worship service, like Willow Creek and other churches have done. Sunday morning is supposed to be an equipping time. It is one thing to have an altar call every Sunday morning, so if the lost are present, some might be saved. It is another entirely different thing to have the purpose of the service as outreach. To me, that does not comport with the Bible because the purpose of Sunday morning worship should be equip believers for the work of the ministry, i.e. reaching people in their "marketplace ministry" during the week, at school or at work.- Jonathan
Answer:
I think a sunday morning service could be seeker friendly without compromising discipleship.
At most churches, the Sunday morning service is not the time when the most in depth discipleship is done. That usually occurs in Sunday School, small groups meeting during the week, things like that.
I think without compromising a biblical basis, there can be a sermon that applies to the Christian and non-Christian, because ultimately, the Bible applies to a person's life whether they are a Christian or not.
Bottom line for me: Don't compromise having a discipleship based worship service, but at the same time, it can be applicable for a non-Christian.
Answer:
I tend to agree with George's post to some extent. However, I wonder what "seeker friendly" means in practical terms. Is this "seeker friendly" under the Willow Creek model? Or does the phrase envision something else? I agree that the Sunday morning service should not be in-depth discipleship. However, I look at the Sunday morning service as something more than a sermon. An important part of the Sunday morning service is praise and worship. In Ephesians and Colossians, we are encouraged AS BELIEVERS to come together and sing "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs." This is something to be done during a corporate believers gathering. Now, how should this be adapted into a "seeker friendly" context? Do we introduce secular music? I think that would be compromise in worship. Do we make worship somehow mysterious? To me, worship never was mysterious. There is no mystery in worshipping God. The crux of the matter for me is that the Sunday morning service's main focus should be to equip believers to do the work of the ministry (Eph. 4), because it is an "assembly of believers" (Heb. 10:25). If there are unbelievers, however, there are several things to consider: (1) The Holy Spirit draws them. (2) Worship in general draws them to Christ (If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto Myself). (3) We need to exhibit love when non-Christians join us in worship, and be welcoming to them. But none of those considerations indicates a change of format of the service, just invites them to enter into a relationship with Christ.- Jonathan
Answer:
You say outreach -- trying to get them interested, teaching them the gospel, exposing them to God.
IMO, the latter two are valuable goals for any worship service, and beneficial to Christians as much as non. I'm not such a fan of the first. I'm not sure we're called to "market" the gospel, as it were.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Jay Tea You say outreach -- trying to get them interested, teaching them the gospel, exposing them to God.
IMO, the latter two are valuable goals for any worship service, and beneficial to Christians as much as non. I'm not such a fan of the first. I'm not sure we're called to "market" the gospel, as it were.
I think most "seekers" come to a Sunday service because they're looking for something different than what they are getting from popular culture. If they wanted to hear secular music and be entertained rather than participate in worship they could stay home and watch TV. In a discipleship type service, the unchurched may not get every inference from an in-depth sermon or the lyrics to a hymn, and if they're new to the church they probably won't expect to "get" everything, but if they feel God's presence in the worship chances are they're coming back.
Answer:
The impression I got was that Sunday morning services were for worship and edification of the church. Sunday night services are for outreach.
For example, the song list in a morning service (worship and edification) might include songs about the church, god's greatness, and intimate songs of adoration. Songs that non-christians might not relate to.
In the night service, the song list might compose of a few "secular" (although I'm not sure I agree with that term) songs...but ones that aren't overtly anti-christian. "Beautiful Day" by U2 is one example. It would include some more "musically attractive" songs, and songs about the gospel, the cross, etc. Basically, a song list custom-made for the non-christian.
Anyway, you get the point. Sunday mornings taylored for christians, and sunday nights taylored for outreach. Maybe dramas, special songs and services and stuff of that nature could be held on sunday nights, but on sunday mornings, keep it more intimate, worshipful, and edifying.
This is a more logical approach than vice-versa (outreach in morning, edification and worship in the morning).
What MattatNCFC said was right, about seekers looking for something different...but the night services would be far from what you'd hear on tv. It would still be worshipful, edifying, and focused on God...but this would all be based on a mindset of outreach.
To say a service can be seeker-friendly without compromising discipleship...you could be right, but I'm not sure about that. To me, the two focuses are in two very different directions; to focus on non-christians is very different than to focus on christians, and I don't see how we can focus on both in one service with the same effectiveness as we can by separating the two focuses into two services.
Also, what Nate said about mid-week being more effective in discipleship...I agree. Personally, I grow much closer to my christian brothers and sisters during bible study and prayer and small-group worship settings than in services.
So I think Nate's idea is worth some thought. What if ALL of our services were for outreach and public worship, and we kept our discipleship and edification for small-group worship, prayer meetings, bible studies, etc.
That's an idea...
Answer:
Originally Posted by agrimes87 Also, what Nate said about mid-week being more effective in discipleship...I agree. Personally, I grow much closer to my christian brothers and sisters during bible study and prayer and small-group worship settings than in services.
So I think Nate's idea is worth some thought. What if ALL of our services were for outreach and public worship, and we kept our discipleship and edification for small-group worship, prayer meetings, bible studies, etc.
Those weren't my ideas. I would never suggest that we only attempt to disciple and edify on the small-group scale. I firmly believe that worship services can, and should, be very edifying... and I think that (besides giving glory to God, of course) is their primary purpose.
In His love,
Nate
Answer:
Originally Posted by agrimes87 The impression I got was that Sunday morning services were for worship and edification of the church. Sunday night services are for outreach.
This is a more logical approach than vice-versa (outreach in morning, edification and worship in the morning).
Where did you get this impression from? Scripture? Apostolic example? The way your (and my, incidentally) denomination has done things for the last 80 years?
I actually think it's a far less logical order than the reverse. As much as I disagree with things Rick Warren says in The Purpose Driven Church, he's certainly correct in saying that non-believers are far more likely to come to church on a Sunday morning than any other time (barring Christmas services). If you're going to tailor a service to outreach, it may as well be the one that non-Christians are more likely to come to.
Answer:
Well, my church for one does not have a Sunday evening service. We have a Sunday morning service for the purpose of equipping, and we have a midweek "service" that more-so operates as a youth night (sort of) and a training seminar for older youth, young adults, and regular adults. There is a time of worship for everyone led by the youth band, and that is followed by a junior high class, and the rest of the youth and young adults joining older adults for the congregational training session that can be on a number of subjects, e.g. deliverance ministry, spiritual gifts, and healing the sick.
We do not have any other service that would be tailored more so towards outreach. My church, by the way, is non-denominational. There is no denominational format that we have to follow. I agree that non-believers are more likely to come to church on Sunday morning, but I think if we're just sensitive to the Holy Spirit drawing, we should not compromise and alter or change Sunday morning worship to be something other than edification of believers, with a sensitivity to what the Holy Spirit might be doing in those that do not know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.- Jonathan
Answer:
Originally Posted by Nate Those weren't my ideas. I would never suggest that we only attempt to disciple and edify on the small-group scale. I firmly believe that worship services can, and should, be very edifying... and I think that (besides giving glory to God, of course) is their primary purpose.
In His love,
Nate i'm sorry for giving that impression; it certainly wasn't what i meant to say. when i said i thought your idea was worth some thought, and then i went on to propose that all services be for outreach...i was expanding on your comments, and it was just a proposition. i know i communicated it in a way that implied it was your idea, but that wasn't my intention. it wasn't your idea, and it's not even mine, really. it was just a propositional question; just something to think about, as an extremity of an idea.
with regards to non-christians coming out more in the mornings, i guess that would have to be a local thing. it isn't that way in my church. here, we rarely get any non-christians out during the morning service; they come out during the night. so maybe the order would vary, depending on the nature of your locality, but the concept is the same; focusing services on either outreach or discipleship...then worry about the variations of each.
like i said, i'm not implying that we should, or even could do this. it's just a concept i decided to throw out for some debate, to see how far it would go. i'm considering using the approach in our youth services, where i think it would go over much better than adult sunday services.
Originally Posted by JT Where did you get this impression from? Scripture? Apostolic example? The way your (and my, incidentally) denomination has done things for the last 80 years? the answer to this question is what this forum is all about...finding reasons (or shooting them down) to acknowledge this pattern. i initially got the impression from my youth pastor. actually, it's not even an impression. he came right out and said that initially, the early church meant for their morning services to be for edification and discipleship, and for the night services to be for outreach. i'm not trying to defend myself here or anything (considering that i don't hold an opinion regarding this matter right now...i just threw it out for discussion), but he's fresh out of bible college, graduated this year, and when he said it, he was quoting one of his bible college professors. so i took it a little more seriously than if someone had just thrown the idea out for discussion.
Answer:
Times when Christians get together, we NEED to have as times for Christians to grow. If you are teaching Christians, if Christians are being Christians... then automatically a non believer is going to walk away with something... the truth about Christians hopfully. if you want to have outreach, then do just that... reach OUT to them. Don't work so hard at trying to drag them IN so that you can have these "outreach" servises. Go to THEM.

That's my take on things.
Answer:
Originally Posted by agrimes87 with regards to non-christians coming out more in the mornings, i guess that would have to be a local thing. it isn't that way in my church. here, we rarely get any non-christians out during the morning service; they come out during the night. so maybe the order would vary, depending on the nature of your locality, but the concept is the same; focusing services on either outreach or discipleship...then worry about the variations of each.
That's interesting. I would never have thought more non-Christians would come to an evening service than morning. Shoot, we have trouble getting Christians to come to evening services--we average 250-300 in the morning, and 80-90 at night!
the answer to this question is what this forum is all about...finding reasons (or shooting them down) to acknowledge this pattern. i initially got the impression from my youth pastor. actually, it's not even an impression. he came right out and said that initially, the early church meant for their morning services to be for edification and discipleship, and for the night services to be for outreach. i'm not trying to defend myself here or anything (considering that i don't hold an opinion regarding this matter right now...i just threw it out for discussion), but he's fresh out of bible college, graduated this year, and when he said it, he was quoting one of his bible college professors. so i took it a little more seriously than if someone had just thrown the idea out for discussion.
Fair enough. I would be interested in hearing his sources, if you don't mind asking and he doesn't mind sharing.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Jay Tea That's interesting. I would never have thought more non-Christians would come to an evening service than morning. Shoot, we have trouble getting Christians to come to evening services--we average 250-300 in the morning, and 80-90 at night! that seems just as odd to me as the reverse does to you. i can't imagine getting more people to come out in the morning. we have a much smaller assembly, but we get maybe 20 people in the morning, and sometimes we get 80-90-100 at night...
Originally Posted by Jay Tea Fair enough. I would be interested in hearing his sources, if you don't mind asking and he doesn't mind sharing. as far as i remember, he just said it was what the early church started off doing, but it's evolved into what we have now. something along those lines. but if i get the chance (or remember), i'll ask him for more detail.