Question:
This is somewhat similar to the "GAS" thread, but different enough:
Assuming that you believe in and practice the biblical concept of tithing...
If you purchase gear that you'll use frequently in ministry, would it be sound thinking or foolishness (or some middle ground) to call that part of your "tithe"?
I've been thinking about this lately (because it was brought up to me by someone else), and it strikes me as slightly wrong, but I don't know if it's because:
1) I'm predisposed toward a legalistic understanding of Christianity sometimes
or
2) I don't necessarily think the giver should have full say in what the gift gets used for - for what reasons I don't know, it just feels wierd?...
Anyways, your reflections and opinions?
Nate
Answer:
hmm... good question. i think your monetary thithe is seperate from the tithe of your personal time. so if God gives you the gift of music you "tithe" some of your playing time to God on sundays or whatever. its seperate from money in my opinion.
Answer:
Put very simply, saying "I bought this gear for church use with my tithe money" is a cop out. God doesn't ask for our gear, or car or whatever...he does ask for our "first fruits".
Interestingly, the money sermon I linked to in the GAS thread also talked about this (I'm at work and cant' recall the Scriptures used off-hand).
If you're interested:
www.fellowshipofsd.org
click on the "R-Pod" link. The message is titled "Money".
Answer:
It depends really. There is a guy on our worship team who tithes with gear. He has supplied the church sound system, etc to a large degree, and yes, the bass amp which he sometimes plays. He is a highly accomplished electrical engineer and he is filling genuine needs. But, the afore mentioned bass amp is the churches and only leaves for services at other locations. The cabs, the sound board, the computer and cd duplicator, all are gear from him.
However, I would have a hard time buying myself a guitar and calling it a gift to God. Its a gift to me primarily, even if I am using it to the glory of God. However, when it is supplying a legitimate need...
Answer:
Over the years, I've "tithed with gear" quite a few times. But I've never purchased something as personal as a guitar in the name of tithing (well actually, I've pretty much donated one of my bass guitars to the church...)
Our church has a designated sound system fund that I contribute to quite regularly. When we need something, I usually pay for it myself, then have the church treasurer reimburse me out of this fund. That way, we get the equipment we need, we have a record of what our sound system needs are, and I get a tax credit for a charitable donation.
Rick <><
Answer:
The bible never specifies what exactly to tithe (well, actually it does, but money is certainly not the only thing you can tithe).
For the most part, you are to tithe a percentage of everything you recieve or make. Thats the understanding I got from Leviticus.
Answer:
I guess it all comes down to intent. If you're donating gear to fill a need in the church I don't see what the problem is, or why God might be upset at that. To take that statement a bit further, you'd have to examine what you're buying - is it for you to use, or is it literally being donated to the church for anyone's use? If it's the former, I'd seriously question if this is giving back to God what wasn't mine to begin with, or a nice gift for myself.
My wife and I have given several pieces of musical equipment to our church, although it has always been items that I would not use. I know myself, and if it were a guitar related piece of equipment, my heart would not be in the right place towards that gift.
Answer:
I think that the idea of 'tithing' time and talent to God, which is giving your first fruit to the amount of 10%, is mistaking the meaning of tithing. Tithing is the earnings that is given back to God, that which He himself has given you. In giving ourselves as servants, we give 100% of ourselves, of our talent and out time to God, whether that be in church or at home or at work. There isn't a time off from God.
The idea of donating musical equipment to the church as tithe is also, in my mind, to undermine the discernment of the leadership of the church, unless there is a definite call for that equipment from the leadership, or you are in a position whereby the discernment has been handed to you from the leadership of the church.
That being said, Jesus does say to give with a glad spirit. I certainly would be inclined to give gladly if there was a mesa stack awaiting!
Answer:
Originally Posted by Ricky C Our church has a designated sound system fund that I contribute to quite regularly. When we need something, I usually pay for it myself, then have the church treasurer reimburse me out of this fund. That way, we get the equipment we need, we have a record of what our sound system needs are, and I get a tax credit for a charitable donation.
Rick <>< If you're being reimbursed, then how is it a donation?
On the topic itself...here's a question...
How many of us, if we donated one of our guitars for "general use" by the church, and the church turned around and sold it, would be really frustrated by that action?
Answer:
Originally Posted by thesteve If you're being reimbursed, then how is it a donation?
On the topic itself...here's a question...
How many of us, if we donated one of our guitars for "general use" by the church, and the church turned around and sold it, would be really frustrated by that action?
*Raises hand*
Personally, I believe tithes are the giving of 10% of one's earnings. I would not, personally, be comfortable tithing a guitar or some such thing, unless I felt God wanted me to. But that's just my two cents .
Answer:
Originally Posted by thesteve If you're being reimbursed, then how is it a donation?
On the topic itself...here's a question...
How many of us, if we donated one of our guitars for "general use" by the church, and the church turned around and sold it, would be really frustrated by that action?
The guy I know who does that was not perterbed when the church sold one of his subs. (A bit too good of projection on the bass end) In fact, he helped them sell it. I believe the money actually went to funding a rehab center in Mexico.
In that, I think is the key. My gear is my gear. I get attached to it, but I am under no illusion its a tithe. Furthermore, I am pretty convinced the new testament believer is under no sort of tithe requirement. (I believe we are to give sacrificially)
It is about giving cheerfully. That can include gear if it is to fill a valid need and ownership is truly sacrificed.
Answer:
I don't see how giving gear or buying gear "for the church" but you're the only one to use it, or the main user is anything but an excuse for fulfilling your own greed.
Then again, I don't really know what to think about the whole large church buildings, state of the art sound systems, thousands of dollars worth of music technology - just so that we can have a "good P&W" time or band. Why is the church pouring funds into the things of this world that serve only to satisfy the desires of their own congregation and have NOTHING to do with loving God, loving each other or reaching the lost? It's probably a discussion for a different thread though.
Answer:
Let him who has 2 guitars share with him who has none.
A few years ago I had a couple nice guitars - and a long list of gear I needed for my calling as a minstrel. I had typed out this list of "needed" gear a few years earlier. One night I got it out and throught, "God, at the rate we are going, I am going to be 90 years old before we get half way through this list. Immediately the thought entered my mind, "Give Me your best!" I new right away I was supposed to give my prized possession - a Taylor 815c - to the guy who leads our youth group worship (he had a very crummy guitar).
So I gave him the Taylor. A year and a half went by with not much going on in my gear acquisition. Then the flood gates opened....
My folks bought a condo in San Diego and I met their neighbor - a famous guitar luthier who asked me if he could build me a guitar - to my specs - if I would just agree to play it. Then someone gave me a really nice classical guitar. Then I was able to buy a really high end mandolin - something I had waited for for over 35 years. Then a Taylor 810 (a finer guitar than the one I gave away). Then I got a ridiculouse bargain on a G&L L-2000 bass and a 1945 violin. Then we inherited a Kawai RX-2 baby grand piano. Then a Gibson Custom Shop L5 jazz guitar and Roland JC55 amp found there way into my house. Add in many many high end pedals, and Argentine Charango, a really nice accordian (hey - don't question God), a 1968 Fender Bassman amp that had been internally blackfaced.
I'm so glad I gave away that Taylor 815c.
Answer:
Tithes, gifts, offerings, alms...a person could go crazy trying to keep track of what goes where and for what purposes, etc...
To me, it's easier to just say that it all belongs to God. I wasn't born with any of it (money or material things) and I shant be taking it with me in the next life so I can be less concerned with the details of 'managing' any of it by simply submitting it ALL to God.
Personally speaking, if someone wants to forego a tithe and instead buy the church some much needed gear, I think that's great. Maybe others want to skip their tithe but instead give snacks and drinks to the kids ministry? Fantastic.
Just remember that the church can not operate soley on cookies and sound systems. Nor can it operate without faith, hope and love.
If I want to buy myself a piece of gear that I'll use exclusively for ministry, I think I'd weigh the circumstances carefully and not be foolish about my purchase (yeah, already owning other perfectly acceptable equipment, I think I'll buy myself a Taylor T5 and consider that my "tithe" for the next half year...) and really let the Lord work as wonderfully as He does instead of potentially forcing a blessing on myself.
Christians should be careful about EVERY purchase they make regardless if it's for home use or ministry use or whatever...sadly, though, I think many are not and, like me and my past, they will have to learn some hard lessons about finances. Thankfully, God's grace and wisdom works in the realm of money (it's one of the MOST popular topics spoken of in the Bible, not surprisingly) and we can live differently than the world and receive so much of what God has to offer if we manage our money through His wisdom.
Regarding tithing, in Matthew 23:23 Jesus himself spells out the reality of being legalistic in tithing vs. observing the "more important matters of the law"; don't neglect one for the other...just do both.
Answer:
Originally Posted by thesteve If you're being reimbursed, then how is it a donation?
On the topic itself...here's a question...
How many of us, if we donated one of our guitars for "general use" by the church, and the church turned around and sold it, would be really frustrated by that action?
My wife and recenetly went through a similar experience but with different stuff. My wife found these great portable high-chairs that attach to a regular chair, so she bought two: 1 for us and 1 to give to the church so anyone could use at any kind of function. Well, the first community dinner type thing we attend after that, my wife can't find the chair and she got a little frustrated when someone mentioned that it may have been given away to someone else. While my wife was frustrated and groaning about it (don't get the wrong idea, my wife's a wonderful person who just happens to be human), I tried to keep in mind and share with her that when we gave it away, we didn't put it on loan and expect the church to have it ready and waiting for us to use when we saw fit.
Bottom line is, when we give something away, it's not ours anymore. That being said, I still wouldn't donate guitar gear to church because my heart wouldn't be in the right place for that. At least right now.