Question:
A few months back I posted about a problem that I had with one of my prominent youth leaders. I though that the situation had been resolved. Sadly, though, it came back up in a new form last Wednesday. This time the church leadership is getting involved and I have a hard time seeing it end well.
Recently, I have also begun to develop theological issues with my church. To further complicate matters, I am the pastor's son and am a senior in high school. I will leave for college next fall.
With that as the background, I would like everyone's advice as to whether or not it would be wise for me to change churches.
Hopefully that rambling made sense.
Answer:
whats the issues?
What's the cost?
Answer:
The theological issues or the personal issues?
The cost could be the family of the youth leader (a very prominent family) leaving. I don't know what the fallout of that may be.
Answer:
both
Answer:
Theological:
I'm nearly Presbyterian in beliefs right now, attending a moderately Arminian Baptist church.
Personal:
The youth leader demands that myself and the other senior schedule our lives around the youth program in order to set a good example. The way that she went about confronting us, though, was extremely offensive as it was basically a tongue-lashing. She asserted that youth attendance and youth program participation was directly related to our spiritual condition. She also said that I was lazy for not being able to juggle as many things as she does. She is an extremely passionate person, as such she let her emotions take over when she should have discussed it with us calmly. This wasn't a one-time thing.
The youth program obviously sets forth some of the theological issues which I disagree with. It also promotes legalism and most lessons have their foundation in verses used out of context.
Answer:
Originally Posted by joshaber Theological:
I'm nearly Presbyterian in beliefs right now, attending a moderately Arminian Baptist church.
Personal:
The youth leader demands that myself and the other senior schedule our lives around the youth program in order to set a good example. The way that she went about confronting us, though, was extremely offensive as it was basically a tongue-lashing. She asserted that youth attendance and youth program participation was directly related to our spiritual condition. She also said that I was lazy for not being able to juggle as many things as she does. She is an extremely passionate person, as such she let her emotions take over when she should have discussed it with us calmly. This wasn't a one-time thing.
The youth program obviously sets forth some of the theological issues which I disagree with. It also promotes legalism and most lessons have their foundation in verses used out of context.
how much of this is pride? Are you on good terms with your dad? Make peace with him and skip the youth group. Id hold out. It isnt as if they denied the trinity.
Answer:
Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq how much of this is pride? Are you on good terms with your dad? Make peace with him and skip the youth group. Id hold out. It isnt as if they denied the trinity. I fear pride plays a big part on both sides.
I'm not sure where the question about being on good terms with my dad is coming from... He knows I differ with him in beliefs, but we respect each other and get along fine. In this case, we are both on the same side.
I definitely appreciate your advice, Bill. Thanks!
Answer:
Originally Posted by joshaber I fear pride plays a big part on both sides.
I'm not sure where the question about being on good terms with my dad is coming from... He knows I differ with him in beliefs, but we respect each other and get along fine. In this case, we are both on the same side.
I definitely appreciate your advice, Bill. Thanks!
because your relationship with your dad is more important than the church you go to. Top priority. Plus it reveals how prideful you are coming off, which with your dad being the pastor and your relationship remaining intact must not be much.
Answer:
Yeah, I agree for the most part with Bill. Once you go to college, you can go to a Presbyterian church if you want to. I'd pm John Roberson (mustbenothing) and ask his opinion. His family is Baptist and he's Presbyterian. Granted his father isn't the pastor, but it would have been a big deal for him to change churches. He may be able to give you a bit more advice from personal experience.
Answer:
Matthew 5:23-24
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
Yes, reconciliation of any matter is more important, so settle anything with your dad if it's there. If you choose to reconcile with your youth leader (sound like it may be needed), you can't make it about fully resolving the issues you have with her. Reconciliation is about forgiveness and the restoration of a loving relationship as family in Christ.
Disagreements may cause rifts between people, but if you make reconciliation about resolving those disagreements then as long as the disagreement stands you'll be at odds. So since we all have different views obviously love and harmony with one another is based on something different and should be sought as such. I think Christ's example shows us that it's found in valuing and loving the person and the relationship with them in spite of their faults.
Ephesians 4:2-3
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
So, first go in humility, saying yes the issues are important to you, but asking forgiveness for anything you may have been harboring in your heart against her because that is more important, and 9 times out of 10 they will ask you to forgive them as well. Though it is still a difficult situation, it may be good to first talk to your dad about how you could do that while still holding to your convictions. I understand not wanting to run everything or teach things you believe to be false, but you can still be a leader in the love of Christ.
Ephesians 4:29-5:2
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
As for the youth leader, I don't think it is your place to correct her, though it may be good for your dad to do so. And maybe the 3 of you should talk and be reconciled altogether. I think the most important thing for you all is to realize that we are one body in Christ and are working together. The priority of that is love and encouragement, and that is founded on the faith that we serve a God who is working in us all. We don't make ourselves into a body, but because of Christ and the unity of the Spirit we are one body.
This should make you more humble to work with them, but likewise it should make your youth leader more at peace with the idea of you serving God in ways other than at the youth group specifically. In fact, an identity in Christ apart from ones own home church is a fine example of true leadership, that is, if you are really serving Him with your life nto jsut slacking off. So if you feel led to serve Him by other means, she should be able to trust God in where you are with yourself and place in the body and to guide you in that and rejoice and encourage you. Here are some more verses for you all in relation to this.
Isaiah 32:17
The fruit of righteousness will be peace; the effect of righteousness will be quietness and confidence forever.
2 Timothy 2:24-25
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
Titus 1:7-8
Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.
1 Peter 5:1-7
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
1 Corinthians 12:12-27
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
1 Corinthians 13:1-8a
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Remember those last two are in direct context to one another. If you want more on how to speak to one another in love and all that, check out the link in my signature. But I think in regard to the whole situation and your desire to leave (even though you just have a little under a year left) shows maybe you are putting a little too much importance into theology. I understand the importance of your personal speech being according to your best understanding, but to leave your home fellowship so quickly due to it... please consider what I have to say...
When you become involved in ministry long enough you begin to realize that it's great to simply trust Christ and live, but life and experiences end up giving us questions. Questions that if answered wrongly can bring us a lot of hurt, stress, and overall lose the heart of Christ and healthy love and trust in Him that He desires of us. In this, theology is kind of like a car engine, if it's working great then you don't really need to worry about it, but if you tinker with it and mess it up it won't run so great, and sometimes just use in life will bring wear and tear to it, requiring maintenance.
In general, you'll want to have good regular study and biblical understanding just to stay running solid for Christ yourself. But then if you desire to love other people well, often times the ministry (of life) will require of you to counsel others, to kind of be a mechanic for their engines too. With this theology becomes more and more important and purposeful the more involved and the more effective of a minister you want to be. For if you step out trying to do the Lord's work without the Lord's wisdom, you will be shamed for it (2 Timothy 2:15).
But then there is a level to which you need to celebrate and see the beauty of Christ in all Christians, even if their engines aren't running quite as well as others, they are still racing and the light and hope of the world. Sure, you can't just throw it all away and act as though it is unimportant, for we do not please God through acknowledgement of the gospel, but through proper response to the gospel by abiding in Christ. But in the same way I think God cares much more about our heart to learn and love than He does our level of understanding.
Now there are many snares along the road of righteousness that seek to take us away from that, and it's by studying and knowing His words of life that we are protected from unstable mindsets (John 17:17, John 8:31-32, Ephesians 4:13-16). But if your understanding leads you to draw away from your brother, you have already fallen to a common trap the enemy lays for us. So I would recommend only leaving if it is on the best terms between everyone.
But even better I would more recommend sticking with them until you go to college. There is a difference between telling and teaching, and the latter takes a willing listener. So freely share with those who ask with pure motives, but for the rest encourage them with the heart of your doctrine rather than trying to force the distinctives of it on them. In doing so you may just find that most of your convictions were only held in intellectualism and self-importance, rather than in the humility and thankfulness from the depths of your heart that they should have been enveloped in and directed by.
If you read all that, thanks for receiving my heart on the matter though I tend to ramble on a bit. May God bless you and keep you as you pursue love, following His example in challenging situations.
Answer:
Simply the fact that you're a senior about to move on to college in a year should tell you it's not really worth leaving your church and getting settled in a new one.

Also, why? Just... why? Theological issues may seem important, but just because you don't agree with a few things doesn't mean you should run for cover at a church with just the right beleifs. Sure, keep your beliefs in mind when you find your new church in a year, and choose accordingly, but remember, the church isn't a place where you sit in the pews to digest, chew up, and spit up the next portion of disagreeable or debatable theology. Use and apply what is good and acceptable for learning, and simply discard what you find disagreeable. Chances are you can live with spotty theology for a little while longer. I would stay if nothing else for the sake of your father.
Answer:
Thank you all for your advice.
Also, why? Just... why? Theological issues may seem important, but just because you don't agree with a few things doesn't mean you should run for cover at a church with just the right beleifs. True, the main reason for my leaving would not be theological issues though.
Right now I don't plan on leaving the church, though it is still an option depending on how the meeting with the youth leaders goes.
Please keep me and my church in your prayers right now, that we would all handle this in love and grace.
Answer:
Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison Once you go to college, you can go to a Presbyterian church if you want to. This is what I did, and everything has worked out. My parents knew that I had my differences, but I honored their wishes by attending church with my family while I still lived with them.
I'd pm John Roberson (mustbenothing) and ask his opinion. His family is Baptist and he's Presbyterian. Granted his father isn't the pastor, but it would have been a big deal for him to change churches. He may be able to give you a bit more advice from personal experience. I can do this as well, if you would like to discuss it. I was/am in the same situation.