Question:
Ok, so I've been a PK for a while now. But right now things are starting to bug me. It's very hard for me to listen to my father preach and listen to how great everyone thinks he is and know who he truly is. He doesn't come off as having a perfect marriage or anything, but the way he and my mom treat each other is plain wrong. It is WAY not how a marriage is supposed to be. She doesn't submit to him, but, on the other hand, he doesn't love her as Christ. Like, he will be downright jerky, sarcastic, and rude to her when he knows it pisses her off. It's real hard to see that from him on a Sunday afternoon right after church when he preached a message on how you're supposed to love other people.
And how he insists that he's preaching for God, yet every member who's left the church I know about, and I know why and why they are wrong. I have told him more than a few times that "I really don't need to know that...nor do I want to know. It's really none of my business." His reaction to that is kind of defensive. And any time someone makes any type of criticism about his preaching he and my mom both will rant and rave abotu how ridiculous so-and-so is, and how they're wrong. That, in my mind, is not being a good example on being teachable. Maybe they are wrong, but, if you're truly striving after God's own heart, wouldn't you at least be able to just kind of take it as a grain of salt?
And I've heard him say about a member of our church that "I wish she'd just leave the church." Now, granted, this woman is a little bit psycho and can be...a little bit of a patience-tester, but isn't that who the pastor is supposed to try to reach out to? And if she's beyond his help, then shouldn't he recommend her to someone professional? And, even if she wouldn't go, then I don't see any reason at all to make a comment like that behind someone's back.
And the other week I had an argument about him about a fire code. We had a group going to a place for a retreat and the posted occupancy was like 90 or something, and we had a lot more than that. We had up around 120 people. As we were setting up chairs, I noticed that it was crowded. When I brought the fact to his attention, he was like "well it's like speeding...you're not supposed to go 5 over, btu if you do, it's ok." To which I replied, "no it's not. maybe it's not enforced, but that doesn't make it right." Honestly, I am anal abotu fire codes and safety issues to the max because I am on the other end of things now. I have been with a Fire department when they've done inspections and I know how pissed off they get when people just refuse to follow orders simply because it's not convenient. But I pointed out that he pushed the students, and us, to be excellent in every area of our lives, and, when something is posted like that and we are clearly in violation of it, regardless of what the camp says, how is that being excellent?
Again, I know he's not perfect...but it is getting to the point where I have been ready to leave my church simply because I think the inconsistencies are ridiculous. I am his daughter...an adult, yes, but still his daughter, and I should not the one having to do all the confrontation in the house. Sorry that was along rant, but I need to get it out... Any idea how to deal???
Answer:
wow. that sucks.
I'm sure that you're praying about it. be sure and remember to pray for him as well.
maybe what you should do is sit down with your dad and express your concerns to him. try and get him at a time when he's not busy doing anything else, or go up to him and say "I need you to schedule me x amount of time on whatever day that you can devote totally to me because I need to have a serious talk with you." or, if you're the emotional kind like me, maybe writing a letter is a better idea.
you might try talking to your mom as well. if this is something that's been going on consistently, then maybe she's tried to deal with it too. if it's something recent, it could be that he's having problems right now.
if in the end you don't feel comfortable addressing this problem with your parents, maybe you should speak with a trusted leader in the church.
Answer:
I can identify precisely because I've been a PK for 8 years and have exactly the same kind of relationship. My dad doesn't treat my mom like he should, and he does lots of things that are very unlike what my ideal of a pastor or a man of God is. Unfortuantly there's nothing I can do about it but live my life and identify the differences between God, Man, and my dad.
You have to realize that an ideal man of God is extremely rare and that everyone, no matter their station, is human. Despite your father's inconsistencies, you have to teach yourself to respect him as both your dad AND your pastor, which puts him in a position of spiritual headship over you. Pray for him that God would change his heart and mind and help him to cope with his shortcomings.
If you are at the age where it's convenient to move out or to another church without conflict and for reasons other than the fact your dad does things you don't like, and you can't learn cope with him, move. It will only hurt your relationship worse. However, you will still be doing yourself a disservice if you can't mature yourself to deal with it. God bless.
Answer:
Nathanael was on the right track, I'd like to add to what he said.
First of all, there was only 1 ideal man of God and we crusified Him. Your father is human and is a wretched sinner just like you or I, so when you see Him screw up, just remember that the same grace that God's given you has also been given to your father.
Secondly, just because a man is a sinner doesn't make his ability to teach God's Word diminish. If it did, there would exist not a single decent minister on the whole face of the earth. As I read your post I was very sympathetic toward your situation. It would grieve me as well and it often does when I see others make mistakes - just love them.
Thirdly, concerning your parents marriage, learn from their mistakes. One of the most beautful things about being sinful humans is the ability to learn from where others fail.
Lastly, if you're an adult, you have no obligation to stay at a particular church. If you feel that the Word of God is not being properly taught or that your father is living in some sort of unrepentant sin that would disqualify him from being a minister of the Gospel, then I would encourage you to visit another church tomorrow when you wake up.
I'll be in prayer for you.
Answer:
Even after we are saved... even after being called into ministry (which, by the way, we ALL are), we are still "us". I know that I had to deal with a lot of crap that I was hauling around from my past. I bet your Dad does too.
From the brief description that you gave, it sounds like your Dad has a lot of control and self esteem issues.
It also sounds like he is angry. Any idea why?
The sarcasm is definitely a sign of hostility. The apparent apathy he expressed about why members leave is not truthful. If it were, he would not be a pastor.
It is important for your Mom to have enough self worth and self esteem to stand up for herself when he is being mean to her. We are not taught to submit brainlessly to one another.
Are there any Pastoral Counselors around where you live?
These are Christian counsellors who minister to pastors and their families. Call around among other denominational churches and find out what is available for your Dad.
Also, on a personal note, I inherited a lot of poor behaviors from my Dad. You might have too. So watch yourself to make sure that the ways you react to situations do not mirror your father's.
Answer:
Thanks for your messages. Can't say they're anything very new. I have talked with my brother about this...although it's a lot easier for him to deal with since he's like five states away. He agrees with a lot of what I say, but doesn't quite know how to approach the sitation. Anytime I've brought anything up, like "Do you really need to discuss this now because I don't think I ought to hear it?" has gotten a rather defensive and non-accepting reply. And in most cases, I was honestly respectful and tactful about it. There really isnt' another church leader out here who I can talk to. Like I said, everyone I know is either under my parents in some capacity or non-Christian. And I feel so horrible talking about this with anyone who knows them because I feel like it would destroy their ideal picture of them.
About them fighting, my mom does stand up for herself...and that's part of the problem. She's very opinionated and strong-willed and therefore lots of arguments break out over retarded things like why my dad cant' load his dishes, or why he cant' fix something NOW.
I don't expect him to be perfect, but I don't see him acting like any type of leader at all... He openly makes fun of people (and not in the friendly type), is quite immature at times (yet always having the answers in a counseling session), and again, the way he talks about his congregation members behind their backs.
To be honest, yeah, maybe a lot of this is me nitpicking because back a few years ago, he made a comment to me that nearly uprooted all of my faith, and from then on it was like I realized that he'd never been much of a good role model in how to relate to people, and it hadn't changed since he'd become a pastor.
So, yeah, maybe I do need to just deal with it. But it's hard. Not so much the everyday stuff, but mostly when he preaches on something then the second we're home, he does the very thing he preached not to do and told everyone he never does.
But, Nathanael, I kind of resent your comment that I just need to mature and deal with it. "Dealing with it" does not equal maturity. You have no idea what kind of person I am, nor do you know my maturity level. I posted here because I was kind at a loss of what to do, not because I am a whiny, immature brat. I figured that there'd be some PKs who can maybe identify with me and give some helpful advice, not just tell me that I need to grow up.
Answer:
Iy may be time to move on. My dad used to be a pastor. Has not been for some time, but was head deacon, and we kinda had the same issues. I had to turn my dad in to church leaders for some things he was violating scripture on seriously. It was hard, but necessary. (If you want to know what I mean, PM me)
We have a very, very strained relationship, but frankly. If the man does not meet the qualifications of an overseer in scripture something needs to be done. I do not know how or what you would go about doing, but something needs to Biblically be done.
Just sucking it up does not cut it. Being "mature" enough is not enough. I think Doulos was onto something. But if that does not work or if he is unwilling, he needs to not be a pastor.
Answer:
Originally Posted by PK4Life Ok, so I've been a PK for a while now. But right now things are starting to bug me. It's very hard for me to listen to my father preach and listen to how great everyone thinks he is and know who he truly is. He doesn't come off as having a perfect marriage or anything, but the way he and my mom treat each other is plain wrong. It is WAY not how a marriage is supposed to be. She doesn't submit to him, but, on the other hand, he doesn't love her as Christ. Like, he will be downright jerky, sarcastic, and rude to her when he knows it pisses her off. It's real hard to see that from him on a Sunday afternoon right after church when he preached a message on how you're supposed to love other people.
And how he insists that he's preaching for God, yet every member who's left the church I know about, and I know why and why they are wrong. I have told him more than a few times that "I really don't need to know that...nor do I want to know. It's really none of my business." His reaction to that is kind of defensive. And any time someone makes any type of criticism about his preaching he and my mom both will rant and rave abotu how ridiculous so-and-so is, and how they're wrong. That, in my mind, is not being a good example on being teachable. Maybe they are wrong, but, if you're truly striving after God's own heart, wouldn't you at least be able to just kind of take it as a grain of salt?
And I've heard him say about a member of our church that "I wish she'd just leave the church." Now, granted, this woman is a little bit psycho and can be...a little bit of a patience-tester, but isn't that who the pastor is supposed to try to reach out to? And if she's beyond his help, then shouldn't he recommend her to someone professional? And, even if she wouldn't go, then I don't see any reason at all to make a comment like that behind someone's back.
And the other week I had an argument about him about a fire code. We had a group going to a place for a retreat and the posted occupancy was like 90 or something, and we had a lot more than that. We had up around 120 people. As we were setting up chairs, I noticed that it was crowded. When I brought the fact to his attention, he was like "well it's like speeding...you're not supposed to go 5 over, btu if you do, it's ok." To which I replied, "no it's not. maybe it's not enforced, but that doesn't make it right." Honestly, I am anal abotu fire codes and safety issues to the max because I am on the other end of things now. I have been with a Fire department when they've done inspections and I know how pissed off they get when people just refuse to follow orders simply because it's not convenient. But I pointed out that he pushed the students, and us, to be excellent in every area of our lives, and, when something is posted like that and we are clearly in violation of it, regardless of what the camp says, how is that being excellent?
Again, I know he's not perfect...but it is getting to the point where I have been ready to leave my church simply because I think the inconsistencies are ridiculous. I am his daughter...an adult, yes, but still his daughter, and I should not the one having to do all the confrontation in the house. Sorry that was along rant, but I need to get it out... Any idea how to deal???
Man, does that sound like EVERY church I've been involved with. There's alot going on that defies the Word..and will continue to get worse, until HE comes again. You see, the REAL problem lies within the "Pastorship" itself, due to the encroachment of secular practices. As one Parrishoner said.."it's hard to tell them from us"... EXACTLY the problem in Ministry today.. no difference between leader/follower. God set HIGHER standards for those in leadrership positions, and they are expected to meet those standards, & they WILL be held accountable."Where much is given, much is required" & "count the cost" come to mind.Pastors are human,yes, and sometimes Arrogance of Position affects them... way to frequently,unfortunately. Also, the church itself has been influenced by the worlds' way of conducting business/accepting members/etc., and everyone reading this has to admit that Gods' church is FAILING in it's duties. That failure starts at the TOP, not in the pew. Pastors today have jobs, not "calling"...
Schools that are giving degrees/credentials, aren't teaching "Spirit".. they're teaching "management",human and organizational alike... and is reflected in the overall condition of HIS body. How many Pastors have laid the Spiritual condition of their particular church(when bad) at their own feet? God does!!