Question:
I think we would all agree that as long as we have life, we have the opportunity to be saved through faith in Jesus. Here's a question for you:
When Jesus returns, do you think that those Jews who are looking for the arrival of Messiah will have the opportunity to declare their faith in Him at that time and be saved or does His arrival mark the end of any more possibility of their salvation? (Or anyone else's, for that matter.)
Chris
Answer:
Originally Posted by comitatus1 When Jesus returns, do you think that those Jews who are looking for the arrival of Messiah will have the opportunity to declare their faith in Him at that time and be saved or does His arrival mark the end of any more possibility of their salvation? (Or anyone else's, for that matter.)
Their messiah has already arrived.
I'm not sure I understand why it makes any difference if they're jews. Acts 11 makes clear that God's salvation applies equally to jew and gentile.
Answer:
Their messiah has already arrived.
I'm not sure I understand why it makes any difference if they're jews. Acts 11 makes clear that God's salvation applies equally to jew and gentile. Yes, but I think that he is referring to some prophecies concerning Israel that seem to imply that Israel will get another chance.
Exodus 32[21] They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
[22] For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
[23] I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
[36] For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
[37] And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
[38] Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
[39] See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
[40] For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
[41] If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
[42] I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Romans 11[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Answer:
Ah, I see.
Well, it seems to me that jews won't have a "second chance," rather it's prophetic that before the return of Jesus God will focus his salvific efforts on Israel as a nation and jews as a people:
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. - Zechariah 12:10-11
Answer:
Ah, I see.
Well, it seems to me that jews won't have a "second chance," rather it's prophetic that before the return of Jesus God will focus his salvific efforts on Israel as a nation and jews as a people:
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. - Zechariah 12:10-11 Why before the return of Jesus? Even that passage seems to imply When Jesus returns. I guess that I probably worded it wrong, but I think the question was When Jesus returns will all of Israel be given a chance to accept him or is it too late? And I might add What about everyone else?
Answer:
Originally Posted by tlj009 Why before the return of Jesus?
Well, Romans 11:25 seems to indicate that as part of God's plan of salvation he's temporarily hardened the hearts of Israel until his work with the gentiles is complete.
When Christ returns he will "descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:16-17)
Answer:
Originally Posted by tlj009 Why before the return of Jesus? Even that passage seems to imply When Jesus returns. I guess that I probably worded it wrong, but I think the question was When Jesus returns will all of Israel be given a chance to accept him or is it too late? And I might add What about everyone else?
That's what I was getting at. The Bible says that "all Israel will be saved". The popular view, [the one that I'm not so sure can be proven], is that once Jesus appears it's all over: whatever decision you have made concerning Christ is unchangeable. But is that necessarily true? What if Jesus' return is the catalyst for the mass conversion of the Jews?
Right now I'm thinking that this would only be for the Jews, since the full number of Gentiles would be complete right before Jesus appears [maybe].
Chris
Answer:
Originally Posted by comitatus1 Here's a question for you:
When Jesus returns, do you think that those Jews who are looking for the arrival of Messiah will have the opportunity to declare their faith in Him at that time and be saved or does His arrival mark the end of any more possibility of their salvation? (Or anyone else's, for that matter.)
Chris
Chris,
This is the whole point of the Tribulation. It's outlined in Daniel 9:24 and elsewhere. If I understand the prophecy that was given to Daniel, God is giving the Nation of Israel their last shot at redemption. Then it's "game-over". A rather crude word-choice, but it's late.
peace.
'dust
Answer:
Originally Posted by sawdust Chris,
This is the whole point of the Tribulation. It's outlined in Daniel 9:24 and elsewhere. If I understand the prophecy that was given to Daniel, God is giving the Nation of Israel their last shot at redemption. Then it's "game-over". A rather crude word-choice, but it's late. The 70 weeks ends in the ministry of Jesus, so how can this be a "second chance" for Jesus' Second Coming.
Answer:
That's what I was getting at. The Bible says that "all Israel will be saved". The popular view, [the one that I'm not so sure can be proven], is that once Jesus appears it's all over: whatever decision you have made concerning Christ is unchangeable. But is that necessarily true? What if Jesus' return is the catalyst for the mass conversion of the Jews?
Right now I'm thinking that this would only be for the Jews, since the full number of Gentiles would be complete right before Jesus appears [maybe].
Chris I wondered the same thing and haven't decided yet. But it does seem that Israel will be saved when Christ returns. They didn't accept him the first time because he didn't come in the way that they expected. The second time he will. Anyway, Zechariah 12 was actually what had me thinking along those lines in the first place.
Zechariah 12[6] In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
[7] The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
[8] In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
[9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
[11] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
[12] And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
[13] The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
[14] All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Now I could be totally wrong, but if Judah refers to Christians and Jerusalem refers to Jews in verse 7 then it seems like maybe the rapture happens and then God works salvation with Israel.
Answer:
Originally Posted by tlj009 Now I could be totally wrong, but if Judah refers to Christians and Jerusalem refers to Jews in verse 7 then it seems like maybe the rapture happens and then God works salvation with Israel.
I'm pretty sure when it says Judah here it's talking about the kingdom of which Jerusalem is part rather than being symbolic. Judah was also a tribe of Israel.
Answer:
The 70 weeks ends in the ministry of Jesus
Jesus was crucified at the end of the 69th week (of years). (ref Dan 9:26). There is still one week left.
To say the 70 weeks are complete is to say that all the prerequisites listed in Dan 9:24 have been completed:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I don't see it, especially the part about bringing in everlasting righteousness.
peace,
'dust
Answer:
I'm pretty sure when it says Judah here it's talking about the kingdom of which Jerusalem is part rather than being symbolic. Judah was also a tribe of Israel. Except that chapter seperates the two.
Zechariah 12[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
[2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
[3] And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
[4] In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
[5] And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
[6] In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
The first thing to notice is that Jerusalem is a people, seperate from a place. That is seen in verse 6. Second, Judah is devouring people when Jerusalem is inhabited in Jerusalem again. Third, why would Jerusalem need to be saved first so that "the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah."
If it is not to be taken symbolically, then it leaves alot of questions.
Answer:
Originally Posted by tlj009 If it is not to be taken symbolically, then it leaves alot of questions.
I don't think I quite understand how Judah is supposed to be symbolic for gentiles. It doesn't make much sense since Judah is part of Israel. Indeed, Zech 12:4 seems to further indicate that it is not symbolic:
In that day," declares the LORD, "I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
This seems to be a reversal of the curse which was once on Israel when they were disobedient:
The LORD will smite you with madness and with blindness and with bewilderment of heart - Deuteronomy 28:28
Answer:
I don't think I quite understand how Judah is supposed to be symbolic for gentiles. It doesn't make much sense since Judah is part of Israel. Indeed, Zech 12:4 seems to further indicate that it is not symbolic:
In that day," declares the LORD, "I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
This seems to be a reversal of the curse which was once on Israel when they were disobedient:
The LORD will smite you with madness and with blindness and with bewilderment of heart - Deuteronomy 28:28 OK, I guess the question is why Judah? Judah is totally seperated from Israel (or at least Jerusalem) and God is protecting them and not Israel. Why? Where is Judah today with its governors that is seperate from Israel? Is the God of Judah different from the God of Israel? Why the distinction if Judah is a part of Israel? Also, I am only calling Jerusalem Israel. That may not be the case, except that I don't know what to call it otherwise. There is a clear distinction in the passage between Judah and Jerusalem, but Jerusalem was the capital of Judah. The capital of Israel was Samaria.
Zechariah 12[4] In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
[5] And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
The curse in Deuteronomy 28:28 is for all of Israel if they don't follow the commandments of their God. Did Judah follow the commandments and the rest of Israel didn't?