Question:
God has been teaching us that what we offer on our own, is never enough. That our "fix-its" to the problems that are caused by our sins, are not good enough. I believe that one of the places that God has taught this, is in the story of Cain and Abel. The bible isn't exactly clear as to why God accepted Abel's offering and did not accept Cain's, but I feel if we look at the bible as a whole it will become more clear as to why. Let's look at the following verses..

Genesis 4:2-3 2Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.

From this one passage we see that Abel was a shepherd and Cain tilled the ground. We also see that what Cain offered to God was the fruit of the ground that he had tilled. Now, let's look at another passage..

Genesis 3:17-19 17And to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

From here we see that God had cursed the ground and that it would be difficult and take a lot of work to bring forth food from the ground. Let's go back to chapter 4..

Genesis 4:4-5 4Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; 5but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.
We can see that God had regard for Abel and for his offering, but did not regard Cain and his offering. Abel offered what was provided by God, a animal of his herd, which pointed forward to the sacrifice of Christ. Cain however offered something that he had to work very hard for, that he sweat for, and for this reason, I believe God did not regard his offering. It is very similar to what happened to Adam and Eve when they realized they were naked. They tried to fix the problem caused by their sin by providing for themselves their own fig leaves, their own works. However God made it clear that the fig leaves that Adam and Eve had used as a covering was not enough, when God provided a covering for them by killing a animal and clothed them with it's skin; Which also pointed forward to Christ. We see this teaching through out the bible, which brings us to the next passage of scripture.

Romans 10:2-4 2I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
We see here that these people who Paul spoke of in the book of Romans, had the same problem as Adam and Eve. They did not know of the righteousness that comes from God, and they sought to establish their own righteousness, their own covering for their sins, their own fig leaves.
The bible makes it clear that our own fig leaves will never be enough, that we must be covered and clothed with what God provides for us, because He alone can satisfy His own justice; And The Clothing that God has provided to cover us with is His Son. As the scriptures say:

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Cloth yourselves with Christ, repent and be baptized, and stop trying to cover your sins with fig leaves. It will never be enough!
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cool info, but whats the purpose of this thread exactly? what do you want to be said?
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I was sharing my view on the story of Cain and Abel and incorperating it into the teaching that God has taught us all through out the bible, which is, that we must rely on Him and what He has provided for our salvation. I felt it was fitting, since it is ressurection week end and all.
Basically I just wanted to share and hoped that someone would be blessed by it. If anyone disagrees with any thing said, they can feel free to pick it apart.
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We had a great object lesson in church last night that kind of relates to this about what we are bringing to God.
When you walked in to the sanctuary the ushers handed you a half-sheet of paper. On the paper were about 60 words or so. And they were things like: conceit, envy, blasphemy, lust, witchcraft, idolatry, etc. Basically it was listing sins of the heart and sins of action. Anyway, the pastor said that this was a reminder of what we bring to Easter. This was what our part of the deal was. God will send His Son and all we can offer is hate, anger, deceit, and sexual misconduct.
My computer's about to turn off so that's all for now.
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you should go to devotions writers.... unless you want me to debate you on the points of this... because I can.
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Originally Posted by Daniel21TX
Genesis 4:2-3 2Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.

From this one passage we see that Abel was a shepherd and Cain tilled the ground. We also see that what Cain offered to God was the fruit of the ground that he had tilled. But we also see that "Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering," meaning that it emphasizes the superiority of Abel's sacrifice. So this is no sort of proto-Pelagianism; this is Abel's righteous obedience. The point is, Would Abel or Cain be the promised offspring (Gen 3:15)? Abel is our best bet at this point, but then he is murdered by his brother, so he does not succeed as the true promised offspring was supposed to.
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Originally Posted by Chrysostom But we also see that "Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering," meaning that it emphasizes the superiority of Abel's sacrifice. So this is no sort of proto-Pelagianism; this is Abel's righteous obedience.
There is nothing to indicate that what Cain offered was not his best. The scriptures do indicate that in order for Cain to bring anything from the ground, that it would be very hard work. The Scriptures do indicate (in the book of Hebrews) that the sacrifice that Abel brought forth was a better sacrifice then Cain's; But why was it better?.. Because it pointed forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
I will not argue that your explanation is not plausible, because it is plausible. However, I would argue that that is not the only plausible explanation and also why I feel it isn't the most reasonable.
The point is, Would Abel or Cain be the promised offspring (Gen 3:15)? Abel is our best bet at this point, but then he is murdered by his brother, so he does not succeed as the true promised offspring was supposed to.
Another point would be, wether or not God ever intended for Abel to be the true promised offspring (take into account God's foreknowledge).
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It's heavily implied that the problems with Cain's sacrifice was his attitude in giving it...
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Originally Posted by AXguitar It's heavily implied that the problems with Cain's sacrifice was his attitude in giving it...
I am really intrested in knowing where you see this implied. By the way, Happy Resurrection Day. Hope you have a awesome Spirit filled day.
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3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
It is implied because it only says he brought some of his fruits.. also, fruits grow on trees so therefor I think he might have just picked them and handed them over... (God still walked with man, see the story of Noah, then so I assume he actually handed the sacrifice to God himself)... Moses went out of his way to mention that Abel gave the best of his flock rather than just "some" therefor I think he intentionally meant to say that Cain didn't give in the right spirit but rather for rewards...
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Originally Posted by AXguitar 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
It is implied because it only says he brought some of his fruits.. also, fruits grow on trees so therefor I think he might have just picked them and handed them over... (God still walked with man, see the story of Noah, then so I assume he actually handed the sacrifice to God himself)... Moses went out of his way to mention that Abel gave the best of his flock rather than just "some" therefor I think he intentionally meant to say that Cain didn't give in the right spirit but rather for rewards...
What translation are you using?.. because the translation I use didn't say that. I wouldn't be suprised if that was the NIV version, since they are known for translating things the way they interpret it. Using one different translation that says something different then the translation that everyone else in the thread has been using, does not prove anything. If you want to argue that your translation does a better job of translating the passage, we will need to look at the Hebrew.
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Originally Posted by Daniel21TX What translation are you using?.. because the translation I use didn't say that. I wouldn't be suprised if that was the NIV version, since they are known for translating things the way they interpret it. Using one different translation that says something different then the translation that everyone else in the thread has been using, does not prove anything. If you want to argue that your translation does a better job of translating the passage, we will need to look at the Hebrew.
That's because you stopped at verse 3.
Originally Posted by KJV 3And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
There.. KJV for you... notice it says 'fruit of the ground' and leaves it at that... again Moses went out of his way to mention that Abel's offering consisted of the best of his flock...
Originally Posted by NKJV 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.
6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
NKJV same thing...
See... if Cain were sacrificing to the Lord because he was grateful of the lord then it would not have made him angry... God knew Cain's heart...
3So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.
4(C)Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions And (D)the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;
5but (E)for Cain and for his offering He had no regard So (F)Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.
6Then the LORD said to Cain, "(G)Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7"(H)If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? (I)And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, (J)but you must master it."
NASB, same thing...
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Originally Posted by AXguitar That's because you stopped at verse 3.
There.. KJV for you... notice it says 'fruit of the ground' and leaves it at that... again Moses went out of his way to mention that Abel's offering consisted of the best of his flock...
NKJV same thing...
See... if Cain were sacrificing to the Lord because he was grateful of the lord then it would not have made him angry... God knew Cain's heart...
NASB, same thing...
What are you talking about? None of those translations say that Cain only brought some of the fruit of the ground as a offering. That was your only point of arguement if IIRC. And no I didn't stop at verse 3, look back at my original post.. Please go through and look at my original post and how I responded to John. The Scriptures do not indicate that Cain didn't bring his best. What the Scriptures do indicate, is that Cain would have had to work really hard to bring forth fruit from the ground and be able to offer it to God. I don't see the proof for your initial claim, which was, and I quote:
"It's heavily implied that the problems with Cain's sacrifice was his attitude in giving it..."
I asked for proof and you said:
"It is implied because it only says he brought some of his fruits.."
And I pointed out that the only translation that translates it like that, is the one translation you showed initially, which happens to translate it differently then every other translation given in this thread so far. So I said, that in order for you to show that it is implied, as you said it was, you would need to show it in the original Hebrew. Since the majority of translators shown thus far, have translated it differently then the one translation you are relying on, to prove what you say is implied.
Anyways, I am going out of town for a while. I may or may not have access to a computer with internet, I am not sure. I hope your day was awesome AXguitar.
Love in Him
Daniel
Answer:
Originally Posted by Daniel21TX What are you talking about? None of those translations say that Cain only brought some of the fruit of the ground as a offering. That was your only point of arguement if IIRC. And no I didn't stop at verse 3, look back at my original post.. Please go through and look at my original post and how I responded to John. The Scriptures do not indicate that Cain didn't bring his best. What the Scriptures do indicate, is that Cain would have had to work really hard to bring forth fruit from the ground and be able to offer it to God. I don't see the proof for your initial claim, which was, and I quote:
"It's heavily implied that the problems with Cain's sacrifice was his attitude in giving it..."
I asked for proof and you said:
"It is implied because it only says he brought some of his fruits.."
And I pointed out that the only translation that translates it like that, is the one translation you showed initially, which happens to translate it differently then every other translation given in this thread so far. So I said, that in order for you to show that it is implied, as you said it was, you would need to show it in the original Hebrew. Since the majority of translators shown thus far, have translated it differently then the one translation you are relying on, to prove what you say is implied.
Anyways, I am going out of town for a while. I may or may not have access to a computer with internet, I am not sure. I hope your day was awesome AXguitar.
Love in Him
Daniel
It doesn't have to say only some... it only has to show that Moses never specifically mentioned anything that Cain offered but made a point to note that Abel gave his best...
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Originally Posted by AXguitar It doesn't have to say only some... it only has to show that Moses never specifically mentioned anything that Cain offered but made a point to note that Abel gave his best...
I'm confused. Before, you were using the idea that it said "some" as your main and only real point. Now you are saying it doesn't matter. I have already responded to the reasoning you are now using when I responded to John in post #7.
Love in Him,
Daniel