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Drinking Alcohol
Question: This thread is not to debate wether or not drinking alchohol is sinful. The bible is clear that drinking alchohol is fine, as long as it is done in moderation without you getting drunk. The reason I made this thread is because I need as many scripture verses/passages as possible which show that drinking alchohol is fine and even encouraged in the bible, as long as it is not done in excess. Thanks in advance. Answer: Might i ask why???? There is no verse that says "Thou can drinkest alcohol." Although i'm getting the feeling that its you are convincing a friend that ur actions are okay. Im not going to condemn you, i have nothing against drinking alchohol, however, remember what Paul says. This is under your "Christian Liberties" but if its effecting other believers, you need to be careful. However, to answer your question, why would Jesus turn the water into wine if it is wrong to drink alchohol??? Jason Answer: Originally Posted by jrb4him Might i ask why???? There is no verse that says "Thou can drinkest alcohol." Although i'm getting the feeling that its you are convincing a friend that ur actions are okay. Im not going to condemn you, i have nothing against drinking alchohol, however, remember what Paul says. The reason why is because my sister is having trouble with what seems to be a legalistic preacher. She asked me to tell her where the bible talks about drinking alchohol being okay as long as it isn't in excess. Since I know the bible doesn't talk about this in great length in any one area, but rather in little bits and pieces all through out the bible, I decided, rather then taking this on my own, I could simply write down the scriptures I remember off the top of my head, and ask for others here to give me what they remember off the top of their heads. This is under your "Christian Liberties" but if its effecting other believers, you need to be careful. I am aware of this, and this is why I don't drink around people who it offends. Even though I do know that there has to be a line some where. We can't always please everyone all the time, take for instance Jesus was called a gluttnous man and a drunkard by the pharisees, yet, Jesus continued to drink and eat. Regardless though, I try not to offend my brothers in Christ. However, to answer your question, why would Jesus turn the water into wine if it is wrong to drink alchohol??? Thank you Jason. Edit: Btw, my sister lives nearly 1000 miles away from me. I can't sit and talk with the preacher myself. Answer: hey...just after readin your reply i realized how harsh i had been in my reply. Sorry to come across so strongly, just has been lately some friends have been talking about they cant wait to drink or whatever ar planning on drinking and i just have had discussions with them or whatnot. Should have understood your situation more before coming across so harshly, my apologies. Jason Answer: Originally Posted by jrb4him hey...just after readin your reply i realized how harsh i had been in my reply. Sorry to come across so strongly, just has been lately some friends have been talking about they cant wait to drink or whatever ar planning on drinking and i just have had discussions with them or whatnot. Should have understood your situation more before coming across so harshly, my apologies. Jason Don't worry about it Jason. In fact, I want to thank you for caring enough to remind me about what Paul says in the book of Romans in regard to not offending our brothers in Christ. Love in Him, Daniel Answer: Originally Posted by Daniel21TX This thread is not to debate wether or not drinking alchohol is sinful. The bible is clear that drinking alchohol is fine, as long as it is done in moderation without you getting drunk. The reason I made this thread is because I need as many scripture verses/passages as possible which show that drinking alchohol is fine and even encouraged in the bible, as long as it is not done in excess. Thanks in advance. Proverbs 31 Answer: Perhaps this will help you. I spent a larger amount of time compiling this and have since just added to it and used it as my master-alcohol isn't sin post. Keep in mind, before I say the following, drinking wine IS sinful under three conditions. 1. If you are underage you are breaking the law, this is illegal and sinful. 2. If you are not drinking in moderation, getting yourself tipsy and/or drunk. 3. If you are offending someone with you or causing someone to stumble I am constantly confronted with people who think that any amount of alcoholic consumption is bad. Many denominations teach this as well. Hearing such a thing is becoming quite a thorn at my side because they are clearly calling Christ a sinner. Grape juice (unfermented wine) wasn't even created until the late 1800's. That's nearly two millenia since Christ walked this earth. "1869 Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an "unfermented sacramental wine" for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry." So just based off of historical evidence alone, we can note that Jesus not only drank fermented wine, but served it to others. The belief in prohibition was started sternly, it seems, a generation after the production of grape juice. Where people could begin to argue out of ignorance that Jesus was not drinking fermented wine but grape juice instead (the fact that unfermented wine hadn't been around long enough not occuring to them since they had had it all their lives) But let's not stop at just historical evidence, let's lean heavily on scripture. Matthew 11:18-19 is a prime example. Mat 11:18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' Mat 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." Here it states that Jesus drank alcohol. It is quite clear as it correlates him drinking with people calling him a drunkard for it. It also uses the part where it says that John didn't eat or drink. This of course means that he didn't eat to excess and that he didnt' drink alcohol. Since not drinking anything would mean death from dehydration. So it wouldn't make sense just to say that he wasn't drinking anything. But that this is specifically refering to alcohol. An important thing to note is that "a drunkard" is actually using the word "oinopotes" which is a derivative of the word oinos (wine). So the language clearly indicates that wine (oinos) is something you get drunk off of. Be wary that you are condeming us for the same thing that these pharisees condemned Christ. You are calling Jesus a sinner. The next major scriptural arguement that prohibitionists take is pertaining to the greek and hebrew. Claiming that it really means unfermented wine, however, those people clearly do not know either language. Allow me to demonstrate. They believe that "Oinos" and "gleukos" are both only refering to unfermened wine (which, granted, I've already sufficiently proven false, but I'll continue nontheless until there's no doubt left). Pro 9:5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine [which] I have mingled. The Hebrew word there is yayin. Which comes from a root meaning to effervesce (form bubbles). It is obviously fermented wine and nothing else. Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Yayin is used here as well. (Just in case there was any doubt that Yayin means fermented wine) Pro 20:1 Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Here is a command to give wine (yayin) to certain people at least. (Just in case there was any doubt that Yayin means fermented wine) Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Yayin again appears here. And it isn't a bad thing here. It is something that the righteous are told to do. I'd like to see someone explain that away. Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. and again, Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Now, for the big kicker. The word OINOS in Greek for wine is a rare instance in which a greek work is derived solely from a Hebrew word (that's right, it's a greek word that is Hebrew in origin) and that Hebrew word is none other than YAYIN. Which we have already established is fermented wine by definition. So Oinos is refering to fermented wine alone. No one who actually understands Greek would ever claim Oinos to be non-alcoholic. That's just ignorance. Why is it important that oinos in particular is fermented? Simple: Jhn 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,Jhn 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now. Oinos is used every time here. If you don't recognize the reference, it's from the wedding where Jesus turned water into wine. To call fermented wine sinful would be to say that Jesus sinned here and led others into sin. Another occasion of wine in the New Testament is the word Gleukos. Since this is the word that "glucos/sugar" is derived from today, many of the prohibitionists jump on this word as meaning unfermented. Since it refers to "new wine" or "sweet wine". The Bible clearly teaches otherwise in context however. Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. New Wine is "gleukos" in the greek. The word that people assume means unfermented. However, look at that verse and Peter's response to their comment. Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. So even though they say "new wine", it is still fermented. Now, this all being established that drinking alcohol is not sinful, remember these two things. Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Do not drink to excess, or get yourself drunk in otherwords. That is spoken against biblically. Also, be careful who you drink around. Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Aside from these two points, there is nothing wrong with drinking alcoholic beverages. I leave you with these last verse comparisons from the letters to Timothy from Paul. 1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; The bolded text is of course the word "oinos" and this is speaking badly about those who drink too much of it (a drunk, since beer and other ales weren't their drink back then, wine would be what they'd get drunk off of). 1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. Here, in the same book, we see Paul telling Timothy to drink a little wine, "oinos", to help him with his illnesses. So the myth that oinos is unfermented wine is COMPLETELY blown out of the water. There is NO context in which any verse can be taken as unfermented anything and there was even no such thing until just over a century ago thanks to Welch. Thus, by condemning those who engage in the moderate consumption of alcohol, you have been calling Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, a sinner and one who misleads others. I suggest you revise your ways of thinking. Answer: Originally Posted by Daniel21TX The reason I made this thread is because I need as many scripture verses/passages as possible which show that drinking alchohol is fine and even encouraged in the bible, as long as it is not done in excess. In this passage Solomon is praising his wife-to-be and compares her love with many enjoyable things, and in my understanding, permissible pleasures. As you see wine is one of them. Song of Solomon 10 How delightful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much more pleasing is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your perfume than any spice! Answer: I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Psalm 104:14-15 You [God] make... wine to gladden the heart of man God makes wine to make us glad. Get over it. Presumably the response will be, "But it was just grape juice." In which case you smack the guy over the head. All the verses he corrupts to oppose drinking couldn't exist if "wine" were non-alcoholic, because non-alcoholic wine (or strong drink - deut 14) can't produce drunkenness Answer: Yeah, two things. The Hebrew word for wine in that verse is also "Yayin" which of course means wine and comes from the root of effervesce (which means it's fermented anyways). The second thing is that the very SAME word that is used there is also used in: Pro 23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: So just like you said, the Bible promotes the drinking of alcoholic wine, but only in moderation. To deny one verse says that is to deny the verse against it says that. Which would of course be absurd. Thanks John. Answer: Originally Posted by Jeremymcon Do we as christians advocate the desecration of the temple of the lord, which is our bodies, through smoking and drinking? I don't think that this is a post that should exist in a christian community like the one at CGR. Consider what you are saying. Alcohol in moderation has not been shown to cause significant health problems. In fact, it has been shown to have some health benefits. Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits. It may:From http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024 If your argument is simply that we shouldn't drink because alcohol is harmful, then your argument doesn't work. Alcohol in moderation is not particularly harmful. We should also consider the fact that a lot of other things which are never condemned as sinful by Christians ARE harmful to your health. Excessive caffeine consumption is harmful, but I have never heard any Christian suggest that it was sinful or dangerous to drink coffee. Frequent consumption of fast food is harmful to your health, but I have never heard of a Christian boycott of McDonald's. Answer: Originally Posted by bobthecockroach Consider what you are saying. Alcohol in moderation has not been shown to cause significant health problems. In fact, it has been shown to have some health benefits. Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits. It may:From http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024 If your argument is simply that we shouldn't drink because alcohol is harmful, then your argument doesn't work. Alcohol in moderation is not particularly harmful. We should also consider the fact that a lot of other things which are never condemned as sinful by Christians ARE harmful to your health. Excessive caffeine consumption is harmful, but I have never heard any Christian suggest that it was sinful or dangerous to drink coffee. Frequent consumption of fast food is harmful to your health, but I have never heard of a Christian boycott of McDonald's. I'm pretty sure that he's talking about spiritual desecration.... This is totally out of line with the bible... go read through this thread... Second, the verse that is talking about your body is a temple is being taken out of context. That verse is talking about sexual immorality... 12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body If you take the bible out of context then war is not permissible (thou shalt not kill) even though the Lord commanded it... hmm... That would mean that God disobeyed his own commandments.... And last... Tobacco wasn't discovered in biblical times but I'm sure that if it were that big of a deal, God would have found some way to include it... The Bible is the complete word of God... it is complete therefore that means don't add to it and if you say that smoking and drinking is a sin then you are adding to the bible... Answer: Originally Posted by Chrysostom Presumably the response will be, "But it was just grape juice." In which case you smack the guy over the head. All the verses he corrupts to oppose drinking couldn't exist if "wine" were non-alcoholic, because non-alcoholic wine (or strong drink - deut 14) can't produce drunkenness If anyone around here ever has the guts to say that it was just grape juice, someone should PM or email me so I can give them the lowdown on the literal impossibility of keeping grape juice from becoming wine without having an airtight container and a knowledge of at least mild pasteurization. I like how strictly legalistic views pertaining to alcohol are more reminiscent of the Qur'an and its theologies than anything found in the bible. Answer: Originally Posted by Daniel21TX This thread is not to debate wether or not drinking alchohol is sinful. The bible is clear that drinking alchohol is fine, as long as it is done in moderation without you getting drunk. The reason I made this thread is because I need as many scripture verses/passages as possible which show that drinking alchohol is fine and even encouraged in the bible, as long as it is not done in excess. Thanks in advance. Someone may have already given this scripture, but the story of where Jesus preforms a miracle at the wedding, where he makes more wine. Forget where it's found, though. Answer: Originally Posted by J_freek Someone may have already given this scripture, but the story of where Jesus preforms a miracle at the wedding, where he makes more wine. Forget where it's found, though. John chapter 2. For me this seems to be fair argument for the consumption of alcohol in moderation. If drinking alcohol was wrong then why would Jesus miraculously create wine? And this wasn't just weak wine as it was strong enough for drunkenness. It would be like God establishing that a certain thing is wrong, but then Jesus creating some sort of means to enhance that very thing which was prohibited by God...which would be absurd. Copyright © 2007 - 2008 www.thanktoday.com
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