Question:
I'm currently reading a book entitled "God and Government" (Volume 3) by Gary Demar. In there he gives scripture references about government and refers to "the Beast" in Revelation 13 as the Roman Empire. Could it be true?
Answer:
Originally Posted by Adam K I'm currently reading a book entitled "God and Government" (Volume 3) by Gary Demar. In there he gives scripture references about government and refers to "the Beast" in Revelation 13 as the Roman Empire. Could it be true? In this I have had done some significant study. It appears that all of the early church fathers did not believe that it was Rome. They thought it would come after the fall of Rome but they were never absolutely certain when.
Gary Demar is arguing a Postmillennialist positions in which many of the events of Revelation already occured in Rome and Nero was the antichrist. Or literally that the thousand year reign has already begun.
Traditionally and scripturally this is not the case. Though be careful, as many people on this site are postmillennialists, so don't expect much disagreement. But as I said, I have done extensive research into this area, the below are the church father's words on this. I could actually list many more, but I wanted to keep it early and even though this is a lot, I simply didn't want to do too much work on this. Below all these quotes is a clear-cut scripture that shows Rome couldn't possibly be the beast empire of the anti-Christ.
1.Justin Martyr (c. 100-165) speaks of the antichrist as someone who is going to come. He doesn't even consider him having already come in his arguement to Trypho (chapter 32)
"But you, being ignorant of how long he will have dominion, hold another opinion. For you interpret the 'time' as being a hundred years. But if this is so, the man of sin must, at the shortest, reign three hundred and fifty years, in order that we may compute that which is said by the holy Daniel--'and times'--to be two times only."
2.St. Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430) believed that when the Roman Empire fell, the evil one would be revealed (meaning he advocated the beast empire system).
"For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist." [City of God, book 20, chapter 19]
3. Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century) also believed that the Anti-christ had yet to be revealed. He, wondering what it would be, hypothesized this in his apology. He literally believed that the only thing holding back the antichrist was the existence of the Roman Empire
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish.""
Goes on to say this in chapter 32
"There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire. We have no desire, then, to be overtaken by these dire events; and in praying that their coming may be delayed, we are lending our aid to Rome's duration."
4. St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202) teaches in Adversus haereses, book five, chapter 30, that the antichrist is yet to come and that we should be careful not to assume we know his name.
"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against."
and
"These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation."
5. St. Jerome (c. 340-420) referenced teh Antichrist as being near but not having come. Showing yet another futurist view. In Letter CXXIII To Ageruchia
"But what am I doing? Whilst I talk about the cargo, the vessel itself founders. He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near. Yes, Antichrist is near whom the Lord Jesus Christ "shall consume with the spirit of his mouth." "
6. Hippolytus (3rd Century) this fellow wrote a book on Christ and the Antichrist. Guess what its name was? "TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST". He, like so many others, believed that Rome was the Empire that ruled right before the Empire which the antichrist would be part of.
25. Then he says: "A fourth beast, dreadful and terrible; it had iron teeth and claws of brass." And who are these but the Romans? which (kingdom) is meant by the iron--the kingdom which is now established; for the legs of that (image) were of iron. And after this, what remains, beloved, but the toes of the feet of the image, in which part is iron and part clay, mixed together?
And mystically by the toes of the feet he meant the kings who are to arise from among them; as Daniel also says (in the words), "I considered the beast, and lo there were ten horns behind it, among which shall rise another (horn), an offshoot, and shall pluck up by the roots the three (that were) before it."
And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews. He says that three horns are plucked up by the root by him, viz., the three kings of Egypt, and Libya, and Ethiopia, whom he cuts off in the array of battle. And he, after gaining terrible power over all, being nevertheless a tyrant, shall stir up tribulation and persecution against men, exalting himself against them. For Daniel says: "I considered the horn, and behold that horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them, till the beast was slain and perished, and its body was given to the burning of fire."
and the more compact proof.
"28. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander's time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ."
7. St. John Chrysostom (c. 347-407) wrote about the antichrist in his homily on Second thessalonians (Homily IV) He says this in response to 2 Thesselonians 2:6-9
"ONE may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. ... And he did not say that it will be quickly, although he is always saying it--but what? "that he may be revealed in his own season," he says, "For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work." He speaks here of Nero, as if he were the type of Antichrist. For he too wished to be thought a god. And he has well said, "the mystery"; that is, it worketh not openly, as the other, nor without shame. For if there was found a man before that time, he means, who was not much behind Antichrist in wickedness, what wonder, if there shall now be one? But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is noting to call for it. So indeed he also says here. "Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exit himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God. For as the kingdoms before this were destroyed, for example, that of the Medes by the Babylonians, that of the Babylonians by the Persians, that of the Persians by the Macedonians, that of the Macedonians by the Romans: so will this also be by the Antichrist, and he by Christ, and it will no longer withhold. And these things Daniel delivered to us with great clearness.
"And then," he says, "shall be revealed the lawless one." And what after this? The consolation is at hand. "Whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of His mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of His coming, even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan."
8. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386) held a futurist position as well. Catechetical Lectures LECTURE XV
"12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is now drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after these an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power; and of the kings who reigned before him, three he shall humble, and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself. At first indeed he will put on a show of mildness (as though he were a learned and discreet person), and of soberness and benevolence: and by the lying [108] signs and wonders of his magical deceit a having beguiled the Jews, as though he were the expected Christ, he shall afterwards be characterized by all kinds of crimes of inhumanity and lawlessness, so as to outdo all unrighteous and ungodly men who have gone before him displaying against all men, but especially against us Christians, a spirit murderous and most cruel, merciless and crafty. And after perpetrating such things for three years and six months only, he shall be destroyed by the glorious second advent from heaven of the only-begotten Son of God, our Lord and Saviour Jesus, the true Christ, who shall slay Antichrist with the breath of His mouth, and shall deliver him over to the fire of hell."
9. St. Cyprian of Carthage (3rd Century) in his Treatise XI, he believes the time of the Antichrist is near.
"1. You have desired, beloved Fortunatus that, l since the burden of persecutions and afflictions is lying heavy upon us, and in the ending and completion of the world the hateful time of Antichrist is already beginning to draw near, I would collect from the sacred Scriptures some exhortations for preparing and strengthening the minds of the brethren, whereby I might animate the soldiers of Christ for the heavenly and spiritual contest."
Allow me to show you this, it is what I purchased awhile ago. I just needed the hard copies so that I could carry them around with me and take notes instead of always being tied to the computer. But I completely understand the money constraints in everyone being able to get this set and so this is a free online collection of the collection I have been studying from.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/
It is 38 volumes of so many early church father writtings and such. Very good, very well respected.
Also, a supplemental website directly tied into the link above is as follows
http://www.ccel.org/p/pearse/morefathers/home.html
It includes what wasn't in the first collection. This is an amazing source because it is continuously being added to and one has even been added this month. It is all public domain thus feel free to copy and paste and print. Remember, some of those writtings were heretical, so be careful and take everything with a grain of salt. The CD-rom is pretty cheap, but I got the hard copy set for $200 (a phenominal deal but pricey enough to need considering).
Ok, now on to scripture
Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Uh, how was the beast captured and thrown into the lake of fire if it was Rome? Clearly the beast is not Rome.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
From the bolded portion above, you can see that whoever was king at the time that the Revelation of John was written, was not the antiChrist. But Revelation was written on the Island of Patmos (chapter 1:1) and even the postmillenialists have Revelation written down during the reign of Nero. Thus Nero could not have been the beast and thus Rome was not the beast empire. The only two dates given for the exile of John to Patmos is during Nero's reign and during Domitians reign (which was significantly after Nero). If it was written in Nero's time, it could not have been him because he would be the one who "IS" and had it been in Domitian's reign it could not have been Nero because Nero had died long ago.
So, biblically and historically, this is busted. Though many still choose not to accept it.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Adam K I'm currently reading a book entitled "God and Government" (Volume 3) by Gary Demar. In there he gives scripture references about government and refers to "the Beast" in Revelation 13 as the Roman Empire. Could it be true?
It's a relatively mainstream belief to say that the "end times" described in Revelation are actually a pattern that will repeat many times throughout history: a series of oppressions, antichrists, etc. that culminate, in the end, in a time of oppression far worse than any other. According to this viewpoint there is a "Babylon" in every time, a culture that makes war against Christianity. If you see things in that way, saying that Revelation applies to the Roman Empire does not necessarily mean that it _only_ applies to Rome.
Answer:
That's a really unusual take on things. Interesting, very very interesting.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Blindman It's a relatively mainstream belief to say that the "end times" described in Revelation are actually a pattern that will repeat many times throughout history: a series of oppressions, antichrists, etc. that culminate, in the end, in a time of oppression far worse than any other. According to this viewpoint there is a "Babylon" in every time, a culture that makes war against Christianity. If you see things in that way, saying that Revelation applies to the Roman Empire does not necessarily mean that it _only_ applies to Rome.
Can you back this Biblically? and no! that is definitely not mainstream. Can you please elaborate on what your background might be? In this belief how do you say the world will end? It can't look like anything outlined in Revelation.
Answer:
Originally Posted by AXguitar Can you back this Biblically? and no! that is definitely not mainstream. Can you please elaborate on what your background might be? In this belief how do you say the world will end? It can't look like anything outlined in Revelation.
Biblically, this is chiefly supported by John's letters, along with the many observations that people have made that the "end times" passages in Daniel (and the other OT prophets) and Revelation show a lot of connections to the ruling powers of their days.
"As you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come..." (1 Jn 2:18).
"...but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." (1 Jn 4:3)
"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 Jn 1:7)
John refers to _all_ those who seek to lead believers astray as "the antichrist," while simultaneously saying that one particular antichrist "is coming." He also says that the "spirit of the antichrist" is at work in the world. That, to me, says that what we read in Revelation is a drama that has been continuously playing out over the last two millenia, taking a different form as nations come and go.
Note that John's letters are the only place where the term "antichrist" appears. I'm not even sure that we can say that "The Antichrist" of John's letters and "The Beast" of Revelation are the same.
This view of the "spirit of the antichrist" at work in the world and bringing about persecutions shows up in the Puritans, notably Samuel Rutherford. I can try to dig up some quotations if you'd like...
Answer:
Originally Posted by AXguitar Can you back this Biblically? and no! that is definitely not mainstream. Can you please elaborate on what your background might be? In this belief how do you say the world will end? It can't look like anything outlined in Revelation. The concept is that the book of revelation is meant to describe a pattern of end times and what will happen. God will always win in the end.
I mean, I don't agree, but it is very interesting.
Answer:
OK, here's a citation along the lines of what I was describing:
"And if I may be allowed humbly to offer what appears to me to be the truth regarding the rise and fall of antichrist, it is this: -- As the power of antichrist, and the corruption of the apostate church, rose not at once, but by SEVERAL NOTICEABLE STEPS and degrees; so it will IN THE LIKE MANNER FALL: and, that DIVERS STEPS and SEASONS OF DESTRUCTION to the spiritual Babylon, and revival of the true church, are prophesied of under ONE. And yet it may be true, that there is some particular event, which prevails above all others in the intention of the prophecy, some remarkable season..." (Jonathan Edwards, An Humble Attempt to Promote Explicit Agreement And Visible Union of God's People, 1748)
Edwards considers each head of the Beast to be one earthly _kingdom_ that will oppress Christians, each lasting hundreds of years. (He also considers the Catholic church to be one of the heads, which most of us probably wouldn't agree with. Also, interestingly, this book of his was written to refute a fellow theologian who had "calculated" that the world would end in 2016.)
Answer:
Originally Posted by Adam K I'm currently reading a book entitled "God and Government" (Volume 3) by Gary Demar. In there he gives scripture references about government and refers to "the Beast" in Revelation 13 as the Roman Empire. Could it be true? This is an extremely popular take among current commentators.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Adam K I'm currently reading a book entitled "God and Government" (Volume 3) by Gary Demar. In there he gives scripture references about government and refers to "the Beast" in Revelation 13 as the Roman Empire. Could it be true?
Absolutely. But that doesn't really fly with the notion of a pre-trib rapture though, since that would make most of Revelation occuring in the past.
Answer:
Which of course renders all of our well-maintained rapture hatches utterly useless...
Still though, as I presented, the postmillenial position does not fly in the mind of the earliest of church fathers (as presented), the chronology of the book of revelation (as presented), and the scriptures themselves (again, as presented). We should be very skeptical in believing something that certainly wasn't believed in the early church and was explicitely taught otherwise. It'd be like creating a "new" religion today.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Blindman OK, here's a citation along the lines of what I was describing:
"And if I may be allowed humbly to offer what appears to me to be the truth regarding the rise and fall of antichrist, it is this: -- As the power of antichrist, and the corruption of the apostate church, rose not at once, but by SEVERAL NOTICEABLE STEPS and degrees; so it will IN THE LIKE MANNER FALL: and, that DIVERS STEPS and SEASONS OF DESTRUCTION to the spiritual Babylon, and revival of the true church, are prophesied of under ONE. And yet it may be true, that there is some particular event, which prevails above all others in the intention of the prophecy, some remarkable season..." (Jonathan Edwards, An Humble Attempt to Promote Explicit Agreement And Visible Union of God's People, 1748)
Edwards considers each head of the Beast to be one earthly _kingdom_ that will oppress Christians, each lasting hundreds of years. (He also considers the Catholic church to be one of the heads, which most of us probably wouldn't agree with. Also, interestingly, this book of his was written to refute a fellow theologian who had "calculated" that the world would end in 2016.)
Jonathan Edwards was also a nutcase...
The position that I've always held was that there are several anticrhists but only one Antichrist... notice the difference... the second is capitalized... sort of like god and God only this is my doing to illustrate my point... the way I read that is that the Antichrist is one spirit that manifests itself in the antichrists...
Babylon is yet to come and the end is further away than most people say it is... I don't think it will be in our lifetime... I'm almost 100% sure of it... While it is still legal to call yourself a Christian the end will not come, especially where it's fashionable and status related in parts of the world (especially the Bible belt)... And the bible does not indicate anywhere that things will be cyclical...
I'd give you a more biblical response but I'm tired right now... I should be driving to college right not but I'm not because I'll fall asleep on my commute...
And 2016 is a funny year... people have been saying that the world will end in 2012 and 2016... in both cases, btw, they've been predicting this for hundreds of years and in recent years we've learned that there will be near misses by comets in both years... quite funny if you ask me...
Answer:
The world's going to end in 2038 when all 32-bit Unix machines die.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
Answer:
Yep, that's my bet...