Question:
For clarification
Originally Posted by cngp90 Does 'interesting' mean you disagree? Yes, I believe it was based on following God's law. Jesus came to fulfill that law and to show us the new way to Salvation. This discussion is for a different thread, but as you have stated things thus far, I think your understanding of the OT system and salvation is faulty.
Romans 2:17-3:2 Paul specifically addresses the Jews and why they are condemned before God. His point is that even the Jews who have the Law don't follow it. In Romans 3:9-12 he makes it clear that no one does good, no one is righteous, no one seeks God and all have turned away. And in the ever famous Romans 3:23 he declares that all (Jews and Gentiles/Greeks) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. No one, except Christ, could follow God's Law.
He goes on to say

Romans 3: 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

You might at this point in time argue that Paul is talking about New Testament believers. However, this simply can't be the case because of what follows. In chapter 4, Paul gives two examples of Old Testament believers who were justified by faith apart from works: Abraham and David.
Speak about Abraham it says:

It was NOT by Works
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
It was NOT by Circumcision
Romans 4:10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
It was NOT by the Law
Romans 4:13a It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world
It WAS by Faith
Romans4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Now you could argue that Abraham was under a different system because he did not have the Law, but Paul doesn't just mention Abraham. He brings up David as well. Paul quotes and interprets David in verses 6-8. His conclusion is that David teaches that we receive righteousness apart from works.

Romans 4:6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Paul even goes on to explain the purpose of the Law.

Romans 4:14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

The Law has no power to save. It only has the power to expose sin and condemn.
Therefore, I think it is clear that we must not think that salvation in the Old Testament came by "following God's Law" because no one could follow God's Law and it's purpose was to bring wraith not righteousness. Instead, we see that even in the Old Testament salvation came by faith apart from works. These works were a way of showing their faith and devotion. They did not cause one to be saved or obtain salvation.
Okay, I can see that. It was a change of belief and so a "conversion". I think maybe why we are having a hard time agreeing with each other is because of different views on the meaning of the word 'conversion'. I think you are looking at it more in terms of converting to a different belief whereas I am referring to a change of heart and a conversion in that sense. I was using it in both senses. I was using it in the theological sense. The theological term conversion contains two aspects: faith and repentence. My point was that faith and repentence doesn't necessarily always come in some sort of epiphany. There isn't necessarily a single moment where the light turns on and you have a change of heart, put your faith in Christ and repent of your sin. CERTAINLY that does happen with many people (particularly those coming from other faiths). However, those who have been raised in the church probably don't have or shouldn't have that sort of epiphany moment (conversion experience). Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
Evangelicals tend to emphasize a single moment where the person put their faith in Christ and repents. They want to know a moment when the person prayed the prayer, the day they signed a card, the service where they walked down the aisle, etc. My point in all of this is that not everyone has a magic moment. For many faith and repentence come over time. MANY people raised in the church often have TWO epiphany moments/conversion experiences. They prayed a prayer when they were in elementary school and then rededicated their lives sometime in middle school or high school. Why? Because conversion was seen as experiences rather than a process. They were probably under a situation where praying a prayer was encouraged (though the child didn't have the mental capacity to really know what that meant). Then several years later they remake that same commitment again when they understand things more.
So when I talk about converting Christians, I'm talking about pressuring to have an epiphany moment or conversion experience...pressuring people to pray a prayer, sign a card, walk down the aisle, etc. We're emphasizing the wrong things when we do that.
Answer:
Sorry, I wrote that kind of fast. I have never quite taken the time to completely and thoroughly understand the way to salvation in the Old Testament, so thank you for those verses you posted. I agree with most of what you wrote here and, like I said in my first post on this subject, I know it was by faith also. It was faith in the promise to come like it says about Abraham, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
The “works” that were required for salvation were the sacrifices and burnt offerings that God required for the people’s sins. And of course it required being devoted to the Lord and like you said the result would be obedience to the Lord.
I was using it in both senses. I was using it in the theological sense. The theological term conversion contains two aspects: faith and repentence. My point was that faith and repentence doesn't necessarily always come in some sort of epiphany. There isn't necessarily a single moment where the light turns on and you have a change of heart, put your faith in Christ and repent of your sin. CERTAINLY that does happen with many people (particularly those coming from other faiths). However, those who have been raised in the church probably don't have or shouldn't have that sort of epiphany moment (conversion experience). Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
They wouldn’t have an epiphany moment as far as a different belief, but it would change to more that belief and it would then be faith in Jesus and a repentance for not accepting Jesus’ gift and for past sins. It’s like the analogy of the gift that someone wants to give you but until you take the gift and open it, you have not really taken it. You can believe that it is there and have the knowledge but until you take hold of it for yourself it isn’t salvation.
Evangelicals tend to emphasize a single moment where the person put their faith in Christ and repents. They want to know a moment when the person prayed the prayer, the day they signed a card, the service where they walked down the aisle, etc. My point in all of this is that not everyone has a magic moment. For many faith and repentence come over time. MANY people raised in the church often have TWO epiphany moments/conversion experiences. They prayed a prayer when they were in elementary school and then rededicated their lives sometime in middle school or high school. Why? Because conversion was seen as experiences rather than a process. They were probably under a situation where praying a prayer was encouraged (though the child didn't have the mental capacity to really know what that meant). Then several years later they remake that same commitment again when they understand things more.
I can only speak from my own experience, but I was never encouraged to pray the prayer of repentance and acceptance of Jesus into my heart as a child. I chose it myself and I believe it was God who called me even at the young age of three. I believe God took me then and I was really and truly saved. My life is a continual process, though, of taking more and more a hold of God and making the relationship deeper as God continues to grow me. I believe that when I prayed that prayer when I was three, God entered my heart and began working in me. The relationship became deeper though when I was about twelve or thirteen and I think it was like a new level. Now I think God is taking me to an even higher level of friendship and commitment.
So I can see what you’re saying although I don’t agree that a child cant’t take hold of Jesus’ truth at a young age and give their heart to the Lord because I’ve seen it in myself and my siblings’ lives. I believe that children do have the mental capacity to know what they are doing to a certain degree. I think of Samuel or Josiah in the Bible who the Lord spoke to and filled with his spirit from a very young age. Jesus says in Matthew, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.” Matthew 11:25-26
So when I talk about converting Christians, I'm talking about pressuring to have an epiphany moment or conversion experience...pressuring people to pray a prayer, sign a card, walk down the aisle, etc. We're emphasizing the wrong things when we do that
To pressure someone to have that conversion experience is wrong but I don’t believe it is wrong to help someone to see the need for it
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There are two main factors that I've seen regarding salvation... Grace and Faith... some people argue which is more important and which will actually save you...
My thoughts: The bible mentions both in regards to salvation... Therefore, if the Bible says both, then you need both...
The only way that I could possibly see how works fits into the picture of salvation is because faith without works cannot exist... Therefor works are required, but in addition to faith and grace...
Also, all is made possible through love...
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Originally Posted by AXguitar Grace and Faith... some people argue which is more important and which will actually save you... People argue over that? That would seem to be something that people seem to agree upon.
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The bible teaches how to be saved, which is to have faith. It also teaches how to have faith, which is do works. So it's the actual believing that will save us, not the actual "showing of it". Faith and works are inseparable but faith is the real "qualifier" and works is just the "quantifier". Am I making any blimey sense here?
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Originally Posted by Stealth3si The bible teaches how to be saved, which is to have faith. It also teaches how to have faith, which is do works. So it's the actual believing that will save us, not the actual "showing of it". Faith and works are inseparable but faith is the real "qualifier" and works is just the "quantifier". Am I making any blimey sense here? Where does scripture say the to have faith is to do works?
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Originally Posted by Sean Where does scripture say the to have faith is to do works? Most people take that idea from the fruits of the spirit and whatnot. If one is a Christian (i.e. justified), then one must therefore be doing good works (i.e. the simpleton's idea of sanctification). In my experience, anyway. Which still is a works-based salvation, as the very fate of your soul is boiled down to something so simple as whether you are nice to people or not.
Silly, isn't it?
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Originally Posted by Sean Where does scripture say the to have faith is to do works?
What I meant was The bible also teaches how to "show" faith.
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Originally Posted by Stealth3si What I meant was The bible also teaches how to "show" faith. I can agree with that. On this particular topic ones choice of words makes all the difference between orthodox and heretical beliefs.
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Can't have faith without works... but you can certainly have works without faith... Is that a works based salvation? Somewhat, but mostly it's grace and faith all made possible by love and the forging of the new covenant...
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Originally Posted by AXguitar Can't have faith without works... but you can certainly have works without faith... Is that a works based salvation? Somewhat, but mostly it's grace and faith all made possible by love and the forging of the new covenant...
I'd say that it's a works evidenced salvation.
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Originally Posted by exo I'd say that it's a works evidenced salvation.
No... works is required... so I'd say it's a works inclusive salvation...
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Originally Posted by AXguitar No... works is required... so I'd say it's a works inclusive salvation...
Nope... not according to James. Read James 2 again... he's not saying that works are required for salvation... he is saying that a real faith will be evidenced by works.
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Originally Posted by exo Nope... not according to James. Read James 2 again... he's not saying that works are required for salvation... he is saying that a real faith will be evidenced by works.
No...

16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
a few lines later...
26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
In the immortal words of Rich Mullins:
"Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screen-door on submarine."
Answer:
Originally Posted by AXguitar No...

16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
a few lines later...
26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
In the immortal words of Rich Mullins:
"Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screen-door on submarine."
That's a great song, I doubt many people know it
Umm...reedolo and I had this conversation about a month ago, so I'm just gonna tell you what I told him...cause I'm lazy.
Some people call James the ‘Show me guy’. What he’s saying here is that if your faith is not demonstrated by your life and what you do, it’s not real faith. It’s a little like if a person claimed that he thought a certain movie was the best movie he had ever seen and it was his favorite movie but every time you ask him if he wants to watch it, he says no. That would show that it really wasn’t his favorite movie. It’s not a perfect example but yah. James is saying that your faith is justified by your deeds. That is the only way to tell if the faith is really there. “Wisdom is proved right by her actions”. If your faith doesn’t show itself by your actions it’s not true faith. I think those verses I gave do say that we are saved by faith alone.
“For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith.’” Romans 1:17
It says that it is by faith “from first to last”. I take that to mean that there is nothing in between that; it is by faith- nothing else.
“For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works so that no man can boast.” Eph. 2:8
We, as humans, are absolutely helpless in our sin, we cannot atone for it. I don’t trust in my own works to save me because I’m not good enough. The only way that works can be a part of salvation is if we follow all of Christ’s commands blamelessly on our own. Only then will they save us. Jesus was a perfect man and so his sacrifice for us is the only way to God.
“His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.” Ephesians 3:10-12
“But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.” Phil. 3:7-9
The works of the Spirit don’t give salvation. They simply are the result of our faith. When the Holy Spirit lives inside us, he gives us power to follow Jesus’ example and the commands in the New Testament. That comes by living by the Spirit and abiding in Christ as our righteousness.