Question:
Originally Posted by Blindman OK, I'll open that can: there's scant evidence, if any, in Scripture for our "souls" somehow floating up to heaven (or hell) when we die. What Scripture as a whole teaches is that we are whole human beings: when our physical bodies die, there is no non-physical piece of us that lives on. There's nothing immortal about a human being: we don't have souls that cannot die. Immortal souls are a pagan (Greek, Platonic) concept.
Eternal life is not something we all intrinsically have, it's something given to us as a gift from God at the _physical_ resurrection of our bodies, in incorruptable and immortal form, in the _physical_ new Creation that will one day replace our current, broken universe.
So to say that someone, the moment they die, is in heaven or hell does not make sense, because heaven and hell will not exist in that sense until the end of time, when the "multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2). Paul seemed to think differently. Paul sure did think that when he died, he would be with Christ.

Philippians 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better.
So what does happen when we die? Paul talks about this in the fifth chapter of his epistle to the Corinthians.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. ²For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, ³inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.⁴For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.⁵Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.⁶Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--⁷for we walk by faith, not by sight--⁸we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Bryan Paul seemed to think differently. Paul sure did think that when he died, he would be with Christ.

Philippians 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better.
So what does happen when we die? Paul talks about this in the fifth chapter of his epistle to the Corinthians.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. ²For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, ³inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.⁴For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.⁵Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.⁶Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--⁷for we walk by faith, not by sight--⁸we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Paul doesn't call it heaven, but he does seem to think that in some undefined, ambiguous way, we are with Christ.
Answer:
Ummm...
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
Along with what Bryan pointed out.
Paul doesn't call it heaven, but he does seem to think that in some undefined, ambiguous way, we are with Christ. Ephesians 2:6 and Colossians 3:1-3 seem to say it's heaven.
Answer:
I'm not denying Paul used the word "heaven" I said he doesn't say we go to heaven when we die. In both of those passages Paul is talking about being made alive in Christ, it doesn't really saying anything about going to heaven when we die.
Answer:
Well, most of the passages saying that to be apart from the body is to be one with Christ, could simply be saying that from our point of view, the next thing we know we'll be in heaven.
On the other hand, the parable of Lazarus seems to indicate some sort of "heaven" that we enter immediately after death: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side" (Luke 16:22). There's also Jesus on the cross saying to the thief, "Today you will be with me in Paradise."
I guess what I see in Scripture is this: there is very clear teaching on a physical resurrection, both in the OT and the NT. There's also many references to "heaven" as the dwelling place of God - but not necessarily of dead human beings. It's this heaven that Paul saw visions of. In fact, although I haven't done a complete search, I'm not sure that the word "heaven" is ever used in the Bible as the place we go when we die.
I think this is a complicated topic, possibly one we won't understand until we get there, so I'm certainly not too confident in my own opinions here...
Answer:
Originally Posted by Blindman On the other hand, the parable of Lazarus seems to indicate some sort of "heaven" that we enter immediately after death: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side" (Luke 16:22).
The Hebrew Bible also has this idea that when you die you go to be with the ancestors (in this case Abraham).
Answer:
I'm confused. What is complicated when Jesus makes a distinction between body which men can destroy and soul that only God can destroy? Paul doesn't say we'll die and then wake up with him in our resurrected body. He says that we depart, that we leave behind our "tent," that we be absent from our body and home with the Lord. I don't see how what word is used for "heaven" changes this, it's pretty explicit.
Answer:
2 Corinthians 5:1-5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
Paul's vision for the future in this passage is not for us to be disembodied souls ("unclothed"), but rather to be re-embodied ("clothed") in the Resurrection. As he says in 1 Corinthians 15:
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised ? And with what kind of body do they come ?"
36 You fool ! That which you sow does not come to life unless * it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
His point is not that we currently live in the earth but one day we will live in heaven; instead, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," the Christian's hope is for God's dwelling to come down from heaven to earth (Revelation 21:2), in Christ (cp. John 1:14). "We believe in the resurrection of the dead," so we hope not in escaping the body and being dis-embodied souls but, again, in being re-embodied in the resurrection bodies made by God, not by human hands, and brought down to us from God's dwelling place, which is heaven.
Answer:
I think that the Church's answer has usually been that from our death until the Resurrection, we will nonetheless live in bliss or torment, and after the Resurrection, we will live in bliss or torment in resurrected bodies. Is that not what is implied?
The "where" question doesn't seem to be answered entirely well, except that the New Jerusalem is obviously from heaven, but existing on earth, with inhabitants.
Answer:
I always thought it interesting that if Lazarus was taken to heaven, that there is no account of what he experienced. I would think that if I were taken to heaven and brought to earth, I would have told everybody about what it was like but who knows?
About Jesus telling the thief on the crosss "I assure you today you will be with me in paradise.' that can get kind of tricky because there is no punctuation in the Greek text. It could have been said like 'I assure you today, you will be with me in paradise' (where the assurance is of today, but we don't know when the reward will be) or it could have been said as most people interpret it, that in fact that day he would be with Christ. Then again, if death is in fact a 'sleep' or 'limbo' state, then perhaps the thief would NOT go straight to heaven that day, but to him, the 2nd coming would be his next thought. Again, I'm certainly no authority on the subject, I'm just as interested as everyone else and don't know what to think.
Answer:
Perhaps Lazarus did not recount his experience for the same reason that Paul did not recount his:
2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
2Co 12:3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
2Co 12:4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

After all, John was commanded to share what he saw (Revelation 1:11).
I think we see the principle of accomodation at work in Revelation, but since Paul's experience was not intended as revelation to all people, it was not accomodated in a way that it could be uttered. Perhaps, if Lazarus experienced the wonder of heaven, he would have been unable to utter it.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Aaron Adams I think that the Church's answer has usually been that from our death until the Resurrection, we will nonetheless live in bliss or torment, and after the Resurrection, we will live in bliss or torment in resurrected bodies. Is that not what is implied? Yeah exactly... There are some really vague implications about a "between-the-times" limbo sort of place between death and the Resurrection, but it's mostly just a sidenote for the Bible. They're looking forward to the Resurrection always, not simply to being whisked away to Heaven. Why, then, if we asked most evangelicals about it, would we hear plenty about going to heaven when you die but likely be met with a confused stare if we asked about the Resurrection? The Resurrection is what needs to be taught -- "I believe in the Resurrection of the dead."
Answer:
Absolutely. Even Hank Hanegraaf knows that.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Dice I'm confused. What is complicated when Jesus makes a distinction between body which men can destroy and soul that only God can destroy? Paul doesn't say we'll die and then wake up with him in our resurrected body. He says that we depart, that we leave behind our "tent," that we be absent from our body and home with the Lord. I don't see how what word is used for "heaven" changes this, it's pretty explicit.
Read Chrysostom's posts, he explains it better than I do.
Answer:
Originally Posted by acrossthesirion Read Chrysostom's posts, he explains it better than I do. All I see is him evading the points that have been made by shifting the focus to the time of the resurrection. Paul clearly talks about dying and leaving the body, but then later there will be the resurrection. And all this business with 2 Cor 5 does not address the clear statements of Jesus.