Question:
This sounds like it should be obvious but, what is the Scriptural evidence for Jesus being God? And what are the arguments against him being God?
*edit*
Actually, let me change this question. Why did Jesus pray to God? If they are one, that is.
Answer:
John 1:1 Word became Flesh
Colossians 1:15-20 - Supremacy of Christ
Hebrews 1:1-5 - Radiance of God's glory
Answer:
Originally Posted by jengoesup This sounds like it should be obvious but, what is the Scriptural evidence for Jesus being God? And what are the arguments against him being God?
*edit*
Actually, let me change this question. Why did Jesus pray to God? If they are one, that is.
They are equal, but Jesus emptied Himself to live as a man:
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

He really did live as a man, having the same status as the rest of us (except He didn't sin)
Heb 2:6 It has been testified somewhere, "What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him?
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,
Heb 2:8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
As the New Testament testifies, however, He still managed to live a perfect life. How did He do this? He did it through he power of the Holy Spirit. He depended on the Spirit to tell Him of God's will, He submitted to it, and depended on the Spirit to carry that will out:
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
He therefore set the example of how we are to live: in the power of the Spirit. The extent to which we live our lives as Jesus did is dependent upon which we depend on and submit to His power.
Chris
Answer:
Jesus made Himself a little lower than even the angels by becoming human. What do you think this meant?
Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
So one could argue that Jesus was a part of God that was made weaker and needed the Father's help in everything. For example, Jesus was not omnipresent while on this earth. Also, while Jesus was God, Jesus was still human and as such would have a natural fear of pain that the Father would not have. The lines of the trinity are sometimes clear and sometimes vague.
Answer:
Originally Posted by jengoesup This sounds like it should be obvious but, what is the Scriptural evidence for Jesus being God? And what are the arguments against him being God?
*edit*
Actually, let me change this question. Why did Jesus pray to God? If they are one, that is. One God, but three persons. Jesus prayed to the Father, not because Jesus was not God, but because the Father is his Father.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Chrysostom One God, but three persons. Jesus prayed to the Father, not because Jesus was not God, but because the Father is his Father.
I disagree. He prayed because He was a genuine human being (He was/is God manifested in the flesh; God existing as a genuine human being). Existing as a genuine human being He had to commune with God by the same means any other person communes with God. According to your belief in a trinity, if the reason was merely because The Father is His Father, then Jesus would have prayed prior to the incarnation, which simply doesn't make sense to me since God can do all things and would have no need to make a petition to anyone else for help.
As for evidence of Jesus being God..
Isaiah 9:6 6For a (A)child will be born to us, a (B)son will be given to us;
And the (C)government will rest (D)on His shoulders;
And His name will be called (E)Wonderful Counselor, (F)Mighty God,
Eternal (G)Father, Prince of (H)Peace.
Micah 5:2 2"But as for (A)you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From (B)you One will go forth for Me to be (C)ruler in Israel
His goings forth are (D)from long ago,
From the days of eternity."
Titus 2:13-14 13looking for the blessed hope and the (I)appearing of the glory of (J)our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who (K)gave Himself for us (L)to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to (M)purify for Himself a (N)people for His own possession, (O)zealous for good deeds.
1 Timothy 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God[a] was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
And many more.. I am going to eat right now, I'll probably post more later
Answer:
Originally Posted by Daniel21TX I disagree. He prayed because He was a genuine human being (He was/is God manifested in the flesh; God existing as a genuine human being). Existing as a genuine human being He had to commune with God by the same means any other person communes with God. According to your belief in a trinity, if the reason was merely because The Father is His Father, then Jesus would have prayed prior to the incarnation, which simply doesn't make sense to me since God can do all things and would have no need to make a petition to anyone else for help. The question was, "If they are one, that is." I'm saying that the reason is that there is diversity (three persons) in addition to unity (one God). So whether we bring up the issue of the Incarnation is not relevant to the particular question that was asked -- that's why I had no need of mentioning it.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Chrysostom The question was, "If they are one, that is." I'm saying that the reason is that there is diversity (three persons) in addition to unity (one God). So whether we bring up the issue of the Incarnation is not relevant to the particular question that was asked -- that's why I had no need of mentioning it.
I see.. sorry then. I agree that there is a distinction between The Son and The Father. We only disagree on when the distinction took place. I believe it took place at the incarnation when God became a genuine human being yet remained to be God at the same time while you believe the distinction is eternal.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Daniel21TX I see.. sorry then. I agree that there is a distinction between The Son and The Father. We only disagree on when the distinction took place. I believe it took place at the incarnation when God became a genuine human being yet remained to be God at the same time while you believe the distinction is eternal.
So how do you read this?
John 1.1-5
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was in the beginning with God.
3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Edit:
As Sean mentioned this is also a good passage for showing the divinity of Christ.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Daniel21TX I see.. sorry then. I agree that there is a distinction between The Son and The Father. We only disagree on when the distinction took place. I believe it took place at the incarnation when God became a genuine human being yet remained to be God at the same time while you believe the distinction is eternal. so prior to the incarnation, there was no trinity?
Answer:
Originally Posted by Bryan so prior to the incarnation, there was no trinity? A form of Sabellianism.
Answer:
Originally Posted by acrossthesirion So how do you read this?
John 1.1-5
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was in the beginning with God.
3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Edit:
As Sean mentioned this is also a good passage for showing the divinity of Christ.
Bryan said:
so prior to the incarnation, there was no trinity?
If you would like, we could start a new thread, or you could just search one of the many oneness threads I have posted in. I can already see this thread going on a long rabbit trail. For the record though, no Bryan, I do not believe that a trinity exists before or after the incarnation. I believe the one uni-personal God exists in the incarnation as a genuine human being and beyond the incarnation as the one true God He has always been. The difference would be that trinitarians believe that God The Son was incarnate as a genuine human being and that God The Father and God The Holy Spirit remained existing as the one true God they have always been.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Chrysostom A form of Sabellianism.
I personally do not believe that wiki is 100% accurate, especially when it talks about oneness pentecostal belief in comparison to Sabellianism.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Daniel21TX I personally do not believe that wiki is 100% accurate, especially when it talks about oneness pentecostal belief in comparison to Sabellianism. That's definitely a weak Wikipedia article. I could probably write three times that much off the top of my head. But I was just trying to link to a source.
Oneness Pentecostalism says that 'Father' or 'Spirit' is just a name used by God when God is acting a certain way, something like "Clark Kent" versus "Superman." This is clearly a form of modalism, which holds that 'Father' or 'Spirit' is just a different form of God, a different mask that God wears.
In modalism, we never know God as He truly is; we only know the mask.
Answer:
Originally Posted by Chrysostom That's definitely a weak Wikipedia article. I could probably write three times that much off the top of my head. But I was just trying to link to a source.
Oneness Pentecostalism says that 'Father' or 'Spirit' is just a name used by God when God is acting a certain way, something like "Clark Kent" versus "Superman." This is clearly a form of modalism, which holds that 'Father' or 'Spirit' is just a different form of God, a different mask that God wears.
In modalism, we never know God as He truly is; we only know the mask.
I am a modalist and that isn't what I believe. Here is what I as a oneness believer believe.
Copied from my RPD with Travis ( /forum....php?t=115843& ) :
I believe The Son is The Father incarnate. I believe that the only distinction between The Father and The Son is due to the incarnation. I believe the distinction between The Father and The Holy Spirit is one of roles of the one uni-personal God (The Holy Spirit is The Father's presence by means of Omnipresence). I believe in one uni-personal God who truely became incarnate, as a genuine human being, The man Christ Jesus, yet continued to exist beyond the incarnation as The Eternal Spirit He has always been, at the same time. I believe the one uni-personal God continues to exist in the incarnation and beyond the incarnation, and will continue to exist like this forever.
Hence, we truly know who He is. He doesn't change, wether He is here in the flesh existing as a genuine human being or present with us by means of Omnipresence. The Son is the express image of The Father. Hence if I have seen Jesus, I have seen The Father (John 14:7, 9; John 12:45). If I know Jesus, I know The Father (John 14:7, 9; John 8:19). If I believe in Jesus, I believe in The Father (John 12:44). If I love The Father, I love Jesus (1 John 5:1). His name shall be called, Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6).
So the idea that modalist never know who God truly is, doesn't fly with me, because God does not change, wether He is in the flesh or present with us by means of Omnipresence.
I have posted several times on these boards about oneness, a simple search should pull up plenty.. and we are off topic now.